Removing the 'contact' rating

[tomkmb]

With the change in some of the visibility settings for batter/pitcher ratings this year - will it ever be possible to just replace the contact rating position at the top with the 'BABIP' rating - then have Avoid K's back at the bottom akin to the 'classic' view where contact is at the top etc.

Just messing with my eyes currently trying to eyeball batter split profiles and what not - I know I could disable BABIP and have the classic view but I'd actually prefer to have that rating over contact at the top.

[coolfish2]

I hope that too.

I saw a quote that OOTP is a "sandbox simulator", but I totally don't agree. OOTP is not a sandbox. It's "simulation game".
So we actually will not be able to do nothing to core things. we can only custom some non-core side things.

[tomkmb]

Originally Posted by coolfish2

I hope that too.

I saw a quote that OOTP is a "sandbox simulator", but I totally don't agree. OOTP is not a sandbox. It's "simulation game".
So we actually will not be able to do nothing to core things. we can only custom some non-core side things.

I just thought that because Contact is only a composite rating that now with the new visibility it could be considered superfluous and it adds an element of visual clutter still having it present.

[EZB]

Originally Posted by tomkmb

I just thought that because Contact is only a composite rating that now with the new visibility it could be considered superfluous and it adds an element of visual clutter still having it present.

Contact is a composite rating, but it is the exact one that means batting average. If you just had avoid K and Babip shown, you wouldn't necessarily be able to easily put that together to know what the player's average would be. The issue i had before was that many historical-league players would start with a babip over their potential. This would drop over time. So you couldn't be sure what would happen to contact over time because you didn't know whether contact would go up (or even remain stable) as the player ages and improves avoid K or whether it would go DOWN as BABIP dropped. Now you can see all those, but it is still hard to know batting average without contact.

[kq76]

+1 And I (and some others) argued for removing it, but it fell on deaf ears.

Originally Posted by EZB

Contact is a composite rating, but it is the exact one that means batting average. If you just had avoid K and Babip shown, you wouldn't necessarily be able to easily put that together to know what the player's average would be. The issue i had before was that many historical-league players would start with a babip over their potential. This would drop over time. So you couldn't be sure what would happen to contact over time because you didn't know whether contact would go up (or even remain stable) as the player ages and improves avoid K or whether it would go DOWN as BABIP dropped. Now you can see all those, but it is still hard to know batting average without contact.

*bolded mine.

Actually, no, it's not even that anymore. Last I read, they removed Power from the equation so now it's just some weird composite rating that means BA without HR, or, if I understand correctly, BABIP times (not plus) Avoid K. Who needs that?

And even when it did include Power, I didn't think it even did that good of a job of representing BA. It was the most important rating, sure, but it was far more important than BA is. And I'm not one of those who have completely forsaken BA, I've actually come back around to it of late (a hit is slightly better than a walk after all). But I just think that BABIP and Avoid K on their own are far more valuable than Contact. If Contact went back to including Power it would make more sense (if someone knows of a post explaining why it was taken out, please link to it as I'd love to go back and read it), but I'd say a composite rating representing OBA should then be added too so it can then be looked at as the most important.

Similarly, I'd like to see the Movement composite rating be done away with. Keep Movement, just rename HRA to Movement. pBABIP and HRA are conflicting forces often going different opposing directions (a flyball pitcher often gives up more HRs, but they're compensated with a better pBABIP) so it doesn't make sense to have a rating combining them.

[snepp]

Originally Posted by kq76

+1 And I (and some others) argued for removing it, but it fell on deaf ears.



*bolded mine.

Actually, no, it's not even that anymore. Last I read, they removed Power from the equation so now it's just some weird composite rating that means BA without HR, or, if I understand correctly, BABIP times (not plus) Avoid K. Who needs that?

And even when it did include Power, I didn't think it even did that good of a job of representing BA. It was the most important rating, sure, but it was far more important than BA is. And I'm not one of those who have completely forsaken BA, I've actually come back around to it of late (a hit is slightly better than a walk after all). But I just think that BABIP and Avoid K on their own are far more valuable than Contact. If Contact went back to including Power it would make more sense (if someone knows of a post explaining why it was taken out, please link to it as I'd love to go back and read it), but I'd say a composite rating representing OBA should then be added too so it can then be looked at as the most important.

Similarly, I'd like to see the Movement composite rating be done away with. Keep Movement, just rename HRA to Movement. pBABIP and HRA are conflicting forces often going different opposing directions (a flyball pitcher often gives up more HRs, but they're compensated with a better pBABIP) so it doesn't make sense to have a rating combining them.

I would get behind the removal of the composites 100%.

[coolfish2]

If user customization was possible, we don't even need to debate...

[tomkmb]

Perhaps it will happen as time goes on, I just feel like if we're ushering in the future with this, let's do it and commit to it. At the moment it feels like the ratings are cluttered and I'd love the option currently to de-clutter, should I choose.

[EZB]

Originally Posted by kq76

+1 And I (and some others) argued for removing it, but it fell on deaf ears.



*bolded mine.

Actually, no, it's not even that anymore. Last I read, they removed Power from the equation so now it's just some weird composite rating that means BA without HR, or, if I understand correctly, BABIP times (not plus) Avoid K. Who needs that?

And even when it did include Power, I didn't think it even did that good of a job of representing BA. It was the most important rating, sure, but it was far more important than BA is. And I'm not one of those who have completely forsaken BA, I've actually come back around to it of late (a hit is slightly better than a walk after all). But I just think that BABIP and Avoid K on their own are far more valuable than Contact. If Contact went back to including Power it would make more sense (if someone knows of a post explaining why it was taken out, please link to it as I'd love to go back and read it), but I'd say a composite rating representing OBA should then be added too so it can then be looked at as the most important.

Similarly, I'd like to see the Movement composite rating be done away with. Keep Movement, just rename HRA to Movement. pBABIP and HRA are conflicting forces often going different opposing directions (a flyball pitcher often gives up more HRs, but they're compensated with a better pBABIP) so it doesn't make sense to have a rating combining them.

Times and Plus are not even valid here. It was never plus, and times has no context to even understand it. I can see what you are saying, though. Previously, BABIP and Avoid K were additive forces on the composite Contact rating. Since Contact had a ceiling, a player with a high BABIP would generally not have a high Avoid K, though, or else Contact would get too great. So what is Contact now then if it doesn't equate to BA? This seems to why a lot players lost a ton of Contact in the import from 24 to 25--especially the high-power players. Players who were like 55 contact before and had like 65 power power suddenly became 40 contact. Batting average now will be unclear, I guess, to figure out? You can see BABIP and Avoid K and HR, but you won't know that "this guy should hit about .280."

Do HRA and pBabip basically seem to deterine hits against now? So the new movement composite is really hits against, with HRA determining how many of those hits are HRs? That seems still useful to me. Stuff becomes a determiner for Ks and no longer hits against, which makes stuff less important. This would also explain why stuff values dropped for many pitchers in 24->25

[Sweed]

If you're asking for another screen option that's cool. If you're asking for a screen that is fully customizable** that's great too, and a better way to go IMHO. If you're asking for contact to be removed for everyone, I'm not so much for it. When they remove things from the game it affects everybody and some of those affected don't want the change.


Take a look at the game preview screen and the removal of batter v pitcher stats for a recent example. Sure one can argue it's not needed, meaningless, etc., but that doesn't mean it should be removed. This was just "fixed" in the latest patch and done in a way that makes it optional. RBI's are meaningless too, and it could be argued clutter the screen, but those can be "customized" a way by the user only affecting his or her game.

This is the first year we have had them add an optional player screen, ie the old screen that had been removed was "fixed" (the first of two screens that were removed in v25 and then "fixed") and returned to users that liked it. With that, like this thread, there are only going to be more requests to add/remove items from the screen. In previous versions the answer was basically the screen is a design decision, but now with the new precedent the user can say "you did it for "x", why won't you do it for "y"?".

** I'd like to see a totally optional screen where one picked what was shown in each skills box from a list like we can currently do for stats on the player screens and views. Pick them and put them in whatever order you choose only limited by the size of each box. I'm not a coder and no idea how feasible this would be, or the time to code. But it would allow everyone to have what they want.

[tomkmb]

Originally Posted by Sweed

If you're asking for another screen option that's cool. If you're asking for a screen that is fully customizable** that's great too, and a better way to go IMHO. If you're asking for contact to be removed for everyone, I'm not so much for it. When they remove things from the game it affects everybody and some of those affected don't want the change.


Take a look at the game preview screen and the removal of batter v pitcher stats for a recent example. Sure one can argue it's not needed, meaningless, etc., but that doesn't mean it should be removed. This was just "fixed" in the latest patch and done in a way that makes it optional. RBI's are meaningless too, and it could be argued clutter the screen, but those can be "customized" a way by the user only affecting his or her game.

This is the first year we have had them add an optional player screen, ie the old screen that had been removed was "fixed" (the first of two screens that were removed in v25 and then "fixed") and returned to users that liked it. With that, like this thread, there are only going to be more requests to add/remove items from the screen. In previous versions the answer was basically the screen is a design decision, but now with the new precedent the user can say "you did it for "x", why won't you do it for "y"?".

** I'd like to see a totally optional screen where one picked what was shown in each skills box from a list like we can currently do for stats on the player screens and views. Pick them and put them in whatever order you choose only limited by the size of each box. I'm not a coder and no idea how feasible this would be, or the time to code. But it would allow everyone to have what they want.

I'd be over the moon with a check box below the new 'Show BABIP Rating' box that just says 'Hide Composite Ratings' or something equivalent. I'm all for pleasing everyone, so optionality is fine by me.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by EZB

Times and Plus are not even valid here. It was never plus, and times has no context to even understand it.

It's just the algebra of BA without HR. I posted it on the beta boards, but BA without HR basically comes out as BABIP x Avoid K. Now I'm not saying that's what Contact in the game really is, I'm just saying that if Contact really was BA, then taking out HR means it's now BABIP x Avoid K. And having a rating that represents that just doesn't make any sense to me.

FWIW, I went back and found what was a post explaining why Power was taken out (I won't quote it b/c it was posted in beta) and I don't really understand it, but it sounds like it was something that makes more sense behind the curtain, in the engine, and that I can understand. But if that's the case, that's where it makes sense, then keep it there, behind the curtain.

I'm not a fan of these composite ratings, but if we are going to have them then I think they should represent stats most of us all know and understand, like BA and OBA. But you should know, there's a strong contingent of users (maybe the majority of all users, I don't know) who don't want the ratings to correlate with stats, they want them foggy as I labelled them.

[RonCo]

There are a couple different ways the game could be doing its math, and I'm sure no one is going to say one way or the other _exactly_ how it's being done. I personally think it's a little more complex down in the weeds...but kq76 is, at a minimum, directionally in the right ballpark.