Starting pitchers penalized for having 3 pitches

FlyTheW1104 · 07-30-2022, 10:08 AM

I believe I read somewhere that starting pitchers are penalized for having 3 pitches rather than 4. I'm curious if relievers might be penalized for having 2 rather than 3 as well and just how much either would be penalized. There are at least a handful of MLB pitchers without a ton of different pitch types who are excellent pitchers (thinking of say, Dustin May) so I'm curious how accurate this is.

GoPedro99 · 07-30-2022, 11:53 AM

I dont know that they are penalized for having three pitches instead of 4, its just having a 4th will boost their stuff a bit even if its a below average pitch

md40022 · 07-30-2022, 02:52 PM

Can't speak on behalf of the game, but IRL if a reliever is a 1 inning reliever, he should be fine if he just has 2 pitches (assuming they are good pitches). Normally that 3rd and 4th pitch are mainly for when you go through the batting order a 2nd or 3rd time you have some new wrinkles to throw at them.

Ideally a starter should have 4 pitches. Even if the 4th pitch is something he intentionally misses the zone with just for the sake of showing the hitter that the 4th pitch does exist. Maybe to interrupt timing or give him something to think about. A 3 pitch start is just more likely to have the hitters "figure him out" after seeing him once or twice. And with relievers, a long reliever won't survive with 2 pitches. But a 1 inning guy with a good heater and a wipeout slider should be fine. He's only facing 3 or 4 hitters at a crack.

Again, can't speak for the game. But normally what I said is how it work.s

md40022 · 07-30-2022, 02:52 PM

Can't speak on behalf of the game, but IRL if a reliever is a 1 inning reliever, he should be fine if he just has 2 pitches (assuming they are good pitches). Normally that 3rd and 4th pitch are mainly for when you go through the batting order a 2nd or 3rd time you have some new wrinkles to throw at them.

Ideally a starter should have 4 pitches. Even if the 4th pitch is something he intentionally misses the zone with just for the sake of showing the hitter that the 4th pitch does exist. Maybe to interrupt timing or give him something to think about. A 3 pitch start is just more likely to have the hitters "figure him out" after seeing him once or twice. And with relievers, a long reliever won't survive with 2 pitches. But a 1 inning guy with a good heater and a wipeout slider should be fine. He's only facing 3 or 4 hitters at a crack.

Again, can't speak for the game. But normally what I said is how it work.s

Sweed · 07-30-2022, 06:32 PM

Don't know where you read about penalties against three pitch starters, it's not true. They are not penalized for having three instead of four pitches. A three pitch SP may be better than a four or even five pitch SP if, his three pitches are of higher quality than the 4-5 pitcher's pitches. Just like real life. Also, like real life, in general, the more quality pitches you have the harder it is for the batter to figure you out. I think it fair to say, in OOTP, the general rule is "more is better" as long as they are at least average MLB pitches but, there is the exception when a P has some great pitches in his arsenal. In that case three will do just fine.

A RP is not penalized per se for having only 2 pitches. However he is almost always unable to be a successful starter because he only has 2 pitches. IE the penalty for only having 2 pitches is you are pretty much limited to the bullpen. Like a SP, and his 3+ pitches, his success is connected to how good each of those 2 pitches are. I think the one exception to the rule is knuckleball throwers. IE they can get by as a SP with their knuckleball and just one other pitch if, the KB is very good and the secondary at least average (5 on the 2-8 scale(?)).

This answer could be expanded to include more detailed scenarios covering the many "but what about x,y, or z" that may come up. Just not sure it's worth writing a book about now.

Pelican · 08-02-2022, 01:40 PM

This thread reminds me of the scouting report line that appears way too much: "throws four [or three; or five] pitches but has mastered none of them". It's like the ultimate condemnation of a mediocre pitcher. But buried in there is a valid point. It's not the number of pitches; but the quality of pitches. Mariano Rivera had one pitch. He threw it really hard, with movement, exactly where and when he wanted. I look not just at "stuff" or "movement" but at the individual pitches and their ratings.

Sweed · 08-02-2022, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelican

This thread reminds me of the scouting report line that appears way too much: "throws four [or three; or five] pitches but has mastered none of them". It's like the ultimate condemnation of a mediocre pitcher. But buried in there is a valid point. It's not the number of pitches; but the quality of pitches. Mariano Rivera had one pitch. He threw it really hard, with movement, exactly where and when he wanted. I look not just at "stuff" or "movement" but at the individual pitches and their ratings.

This is the depth of OOTP that so many players miss and, it's not limited to just pitchers. At the same time they comment on how many stars a player has compared to another.

The answer is almost always in the details.

uruguru · 08-03-2022, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyTheW1104

I believe I read somewhere that starting pitchers are penalized for having 3 pitches rather than 4. I'm curious if relievers might be penalized for having 2 rather than 3 as well and just how much either would be penalized. There are at least a handful of MLB pitchers without a ton of different pitch types who are excellent pitchers (thinking of say, Dustin May) so I'm curious how accurate this is.

Related to this, there needs to be a special case for knuckleballers, who often start very effectively throwing just the one pitch. In fact, the common wisdom is that the most effective knuckleball pitchers were those who threw it exclusively.

It's like hitters can't learn to sit on the knuckleball because it's not predictable (to the hitter or the pitcher).

However, in OOTP knuckleballers won't start unless they have two other pitches.

GoPedro99 · 08-03-2022, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uruguru

Related to this, there needs to be a special case for knuckleballers, who often start very effectively throwing just the one pitch. In fact, the common wisdom is that the most effective knuckleball pitchers were those who threw it exclusively.

It's like hitters can't learn to sit on the knuckleball because it's not predictable (to the hitter or the pitcher).

However, in OOTP knuckleballers won't start unless they have two other pitches.

this isnt true regarding OOTP. Seen MANY great knuckleballers with only two total pitches

uruguru · 08-03-2022, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoPedro99

this isnt true regarding OOTP. Seen MANY great knuckleballers with only two total pitches

That's fair. What I have seen are one-pitch knuckleballers who never start.

07-30-2022, 10:08 AM	#1
FlyTheW1104 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2022 Posts: 70	Starting pitchers penalized for having 3 pitches I believe I read somewhere that starting pitchers are penalized for having 3 pitches rather than 4. I'm curious if relievers might be penalized for having 2 rather than 3 as well and just how much either would be penalized. There are at least a handful of MLB pitchers without a ton of different pitch types who are excellent pitchers (thinking of say, Dustin May) so I'm curious how accurate this is.

07-30-2022, 11:53 AM	#2
GoPedro99 All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 861	I dont know that they are penalized for having three pitches instead of 4, its just having a 4th will boost their stuff a bit even if its a below average pitch

07-30-2022, 02:52 PM	#3
md40022 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 740 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Can't speak on behalf of the game, but IRL if a reliever is a 1 inning reliever, he should be fine if he just has 2 pitches (assuming they are good pitches). Normally that 3rd and 4th pitch are mainly for when you go through the batting order a 2nd or 3rd time you have some new wrinkles to throw at them. Ideally a starter should have 4 pitches. Even if the 4th pitch is something he intentionally misses the zone with just for the sake of showing the hitter that the 4th pitch does exist. Maybe to interrupt timing or give him something to think about. A 3 pitch start is just more likely to have the hitters "figure him out" after seeing him once or twice. And with relievers, a long reliever won't survive with 2 pitches. But a 1 inning guy with a good heater and a wipeout slider should be fine. He's only facing 3 or 4 hitters at a crack. Again, can't speak for the game. But normally what I said is how it work.s

07-30-2022, 06:32 PM	#5
Sweed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 6,689	Don't know where you read about penalties against three pitch starters, it's not true. They are not penalized for having three instead of four pitches. A three pitch SP may be better than a four or even five pitch SP if, his three pitches are of higher quality than the 4-5 pitcher's pitches. Just like real life. Also, like real life, in general, the more quality pitches you have the harder it is for the batter to figure you out. I think it fair to say, in OOTP, the general rule is "more is better" as long as they are at least average MLB pitches but, there is the exception when a P has some great pitches in his arsenal. In that case three will do just fine. A RP is not penalized per se for having only 2 pitches. However he is almost always unable to be a successful starter because he only has 2 pitches. IE the penalty for only having 2 pitches is you are pretty much limited to the bullpen. Like a SP, and his 3+ pitches, his success is connected to how good each of those 2 pitches are. I think the one exception to the rule is knuckleball throwers. IE they can get by as a SP with their knuckleball and just one other pitch if, the KB is very good and the secondary at least average (5 on the 2-8 scale(?)). This answer could be expanded to include more detailed scenarios covering the many "but what about x,y, or z" that may come up. Just not sure it's worth writing a book about now.

08-02-2022, 01:40 PM	#6
Pelican Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: Wilmington, Delaware Posts: 2,962	This thread reminds me of the scouting report line that appears way too much: "throws four [or three; or five] pitches but has mastered none of them". It's like the ultimate condemnation of a mediocre pitcher. But buried in there is a valid point. It's not the number of pitches; but the quality of pitches. Mariano Rivera had one pitch. He threw it really hard, with movement, exactly where and when he wanted. I look not just at "stuff" or "movement" but at the individual pitches and their ratings.