Claiming players off waivers and then immediately trading

tedstriker · 03-31-2015, 01:46 PM

Has anyone else noticed that when a decent player is on the waiver wire, you can claim them and then immediately trade them? It seems strange that a team would accept a trade for a player they could have claimed themselves.

It's a minor problem because I just don't allow myself to do this, but I just thought I would bring it up in case it could be easily fixed.

megamanmatt · 03-31-2015, 11:38 PM

Not if the team didn't have the budget room.

RchW · 03-31-2015, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by megamanmatt

Not if the team didn't have the budget room.

If they don't have the budget room then they should not be able to trade for them either. I did raise this some time ago. I'll look again.

megamanmatt · 03-31-2015, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

If they don't have the budget room then they should not be able to trade for them either. I did raise this some time ago. I'll look again.

Not true. In a trade they could trade a player out there by equalizing the salary loss.

Lukas Berger · 03-31-2015, 11:47 PM

I agree that this is an issue. One of the few things that genuinely bugs me about the generally excellent ai.

ToTheBackstop · 03-31-2015, 11:52 PM

I was under the belief that if multiple teams claim the same waived player, the team with the worst record gets him. Could this be a treated as a case where a team whose claim gets denied still wants the player enough that they would then engineer a trade for him from the successful claimant?

megamanmatt · 03-31-2015, 11:53 PM

I really think the bigger question is why would a team claim a player just to trade him away immediately? That's the real problem.

RchW · 03-31-2015, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by megamanmatt

I really think the bigger question is why would a team claim a player just to trade him away immediately? That's the real problem.

Because they are controlled by a human as in post 1.

megamanmatt · 03-31-2015, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Because they are controlled by a human as in post 1.

Good point. I forgot we weren't talking about an AI vs. AI transaction

Le Grande Orange · 04-01-2015, 01:09 AM

For what it's worth, in real life a club cannot claim a player on waivers and then immediately trade him if the purpose of the claim was to prevent a third club from claiming the player. The Commissioner has the authority to revoke the waiver claim if in his judgement the claiming club had such a purpose.

megamanmatt · 04-01-2015, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

For what it's worth, in real life a club cannot claim a player on waivers and then immediately trade him if the purpose of the claim was to prevent a third club from claiming the player. The Commissioner has the authority to revoke the waiver claim if in his judgement the claiming club had such a purpose.

That makes sense.

tedstriker · 04-01-2015, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by megamanmatt

Not if the team didn't have the budget room.

This definitely wasn't a problem. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the other team had plenty of money to claim the player themselves.

When I get a chance, I'll do some more testing. However, in my experience so far, I have always been able to immediately trade any player I've claimed. I realized it was an exploit, so I've stopped doing it.

As I mentioned, it is a minor problem because I can just impose my own rules. But, it does make winning more satisfying when the AI is smarter.

Painmantle · 04-01-2015, 10:15 AM

This is not an AI issue, this is a Human action issue. They shouldn't have to program the game to protect people from their own actions. And with regards to a Commish revoking a waiver claim, the key to that rule is "if the purpose of the claim was to prevent a third club from claiming the player."

Was the signing and subsequent trade by the OP a direct attempt to prevent another team from acquiring the player, this is a very subjective area considering we (The people playing the game) can't be 100% sure what other teams have or have not placed a claims on the player in question.

As I already merntioned, this isn't an AI problem. If the AI was doing this own it's own (claiming a player and immediately trading him) It would be an issue. If it's a human team interaction with the AI, the answer isn't fix the AI, it is, Human Team stop doing that!!!!

megamanmatt · 04-01-2015, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painmantle

This is not an AI issue, this is a Human action issue. They shouldn't have to program the game to protect people from their own actions. And with regards to a Commish revoking a waiver claim, the key to that rule is "if the purpose of the claim was to prevent a third club from claiming the player."

Was the signing and subsequent trade by the OP a direct attempt to prevent another team from acquiring the player, this is a very subjective area considering we (The people playing the game) can't be 100% sure what other teams have or have not placed a claims on the player in question.

As I already merntioned, this isn't an AI problem. If the AI was doing this own it's own (claiming a player and immediately trading him) It would be an issue. If it's a human team interaction with the AI, the answer isn't fix the AI, it is, Human Team stop doing that!!!!

I'm kinda shocked that, for as long as humans have been around, they aren't a little bit more bug-free ya know?

tedstriker · 04-01-2015, 03:12 PM

Quote:

This is not an AI issue

I disagree. If the AI is willing to accept a trade for the player I claimed, surely they should be willing to claim him in the absence of budget limitations. Why would they give up a player to get someone they could have claimed for free? If they need to dump salary first, that makes sense, but all my tests show that isn't the case.

Just to be clear, I'm not complaining. This is a minor issue. I just think a smarter AI should claim a player that they are willing to trade for. I can only speculate, but I'm guessing that the claiming logic and the trading logic are independent. Just something to consider for future versions.

tedstriker · 04-01-2015, 03:16 PM

Quote:

And with regards to a Commish revoking a waiver claim, the key to that rule is "if the purpose of the claim was to prevent a third club from claiming the player."

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that the game prevents such trading and claiming. I'm suggesting that the AI is smart enough to claim the player off waivers instead of letting me claim them and then accepting a trade. If I was playing against a human, this would never happen (unless of course the human wasn't paying attention to the waiver wire).

megamanmatt · 04-01-2015, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedstriker

I disagree. If the AI is willing to accept a trade for the player I claimed, surely they should be willing to claim him in the absence of budget limitations. Why would they give up a player to get someone they could have claimed for free? If they need to dump salary first, that makes sense, but all my tests show that isn't the case.

Just to be clear, I'm not complaining. This is a minor issue. I just think a smarter AI should claim a player that they are willing to trade for. I can only speculate, but I'm guessing that the claiming logic and the trading logic are independent. Just something to consider for future versions.

Find an instance. Until that time I think Pain hit the nail on the head.

Painmantle · 04-01-2015, 03:29 PM

The thought here for me is, by Major League rule, this is a Commissioners discretion situation, You have the Commissioner Powers.

So claim the player, trade him, then log in as the commish and void your own trade based on this rule,

or keep it simple and never make the trade in the first place.

There is a reason Waiver claim trades aren't a part of OOTP, they are too complicated to get the games AI to handle them correctly, this is a similar situation. Your asking for a complicated soultion to a problem that has a very easy solution, don't make the trade.

tedstriker · 04-01-2015, 04:01 PM

Quote:

So claim the player, trade him, then log in as the commish and void your own trade based on this rule,

You are misunderstanding my point, so I'll try to clarify. I have absolutely no problems with being able to trade a player I claimed. I completely agree that it is my responsibility and the not the game's to prevent that. I should rename this thread to "AI Claiming Logic."

Here is my point. If you were a GM and saw a player you were willing to trade for on the waiver wire, why would you not claim them? The only reason I can think of is budget issues and 40-man roster issues, but that wasn't a problem in any of the examples I have tested. Thus, the AI's logic for claiming players is clearly suboptimal.

From my tests so far, it appears that the level of interest when trading is significantly greater than the level of interest for claiming. In the absence of budget and 40-man roster limitations, that should almost never happen.

SirMichaelJordan · 04-01-2015, 04:17 PM

Just throwing this out there as I dont know if this is an issue or not

But maybe the team wasn't watching the waiver wire or cared for the player until you bought him to their attention lol I mean that is a possibility right?

Off topic but can a player be claimed in the rule 5 draft 2 years in a row? I've had that happen 3 times.

03-31-2015, 01:46 PM	#1
tedstriker Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 75	Claiming players off waivers and then immediately trading Has anyone else noticed that when a decent player is on the waiver wire, you can claim them and then immediately trade them? It seems strange that a team would accept a trade for a player they could have claimed themselves. It's a minor problem because I just don't allow myself to do this, but I just thought I would bring it up in case it could be easily fixed.

03-31-2015, 11:38 PM	#2
megamanmatt Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Lakeville, Minnesota Posts: 2,416	Not if the team didn't have the budget room. __________________ "The Minneapolis Lakers moved to Los Angeles, where there are no lakes; The Oilers moved to Tennessee where there is no oil; the Jazz moved to Salt Lake City where they don't allow music; The Oakland Raiders moved to Los Angeles and then back to Oakland, no one in Los Angeles seemed to notice." Note to self: Princess Kenny was really off-putting.

03-31-2015, 11:53 PM	#7
megamanmatt Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Lakeville, Minnesota Posts: 2,416	I really think the bigger question is why would a team claim a player just to trade him away immediately? That's the real problem. __________________ "The Minneapolis Lakers moved to Los Angeles, where there are no lakes; The Oilers moved to Tennessee where there is no oil; the Jazz moved to Salt Lake City where they don't allow music; The Oakland Raiders moved to Los Angeles and then back to Oakland, no one in Los Angeles seemed to notice." Note to self: Princess Kenny was really off-putting.

04-01-2015, 10:15 AM	#13
Painmantle Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Greenfield ,IN Posts: 3,053	This is not an AI issue, this is a Human action issue. They shouldn't have to program the game to protect people from their own actions. And with regards to a Commish revoking a waiver claim, the key to that rule is "if the purpose of the claim was to prevent a third club from claiming the player." Was the signing and subsequent trade by the OP a direct attempt to prevent another team from acquiring the player, this is a very subjective area considering we (The people playing the game) can't be 100% sure what other teams have or have not placed a claims on the player in question. As I already merntioned, this isn't an AI problem. If the AI was doing this own it's own (claiming a player and immediately trading him) It would be an issue. If it's a human team interaction with the AI, the answer isn't fix the AI, it is, Human Team stop doing that!!!! __________________ “As soon as I got out there I felt a strange relationship with the pitcher's mound. It was as if I'd been born out there. Pitching just felt like the most natural thing in the world. Striking out batters was easy.” -Babe Ruth “Ruth made a grave mistake when he gave up pitching. Working once a week, he might have lasted a long time and become a great star.”-Tris Speaker My Dynasties The Beantown Bambino

04-01-2015, 03:29 PM	#18
Painmantle Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Greenfield ,IN Posts: 3,053	The thought here for me is, by Major League rule, this is a Commissioners discretion situation, You have the Commissioner Powers. So claim the player, trade him, then log in as the commish and void your own trade based on this rule, or keep it simple and never make the trade in the first place. There is a reason Waiver claim trades aren't a part of OOTP, they are too complicated to get the games AI to handle them correctly, this is a similar situation. Your asking for a complicated soultion to a problem that has a very easy solution, don't make the trade. __________________ “As soon as I got out there I felt a strange relationship with the pitcher's mound. It was as if I'd been born out there. Pitching just felt like the most natural thing in the world. Striking out batters was easy.” -Babe Ruth “Ruth made a grave mistake when he gave up pitching. Working once a week, he might have lasted a long time and become a great star.”-Tris Speaker My Dynasties The Beantown Bambino

03-31-2015, 11:47 PM	#5
Lukas Berger OOTP Developments Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Nice, Côte d'Azur, France Posts: 21,363	I agree that this is an issue. One of the few things that genuinely bugs me about the generally excellent ai.

03-31-2015, 11:52 PM	#6
ToTheBackstop Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 151	I was under the belief that if multiple teams claim the same waived player, the team with the worst record gets him. Could this be a treated as a case where a team whose claim gets denied still wants the player enough that they would then engineer a trade for him from the successful claimant?

04-01-2015, 01:09 AM	#10
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,644	For what it's worth, in real life a club cannot claim a player on waivers and then immediately trade him if the purpose of the claim was to prevent a third club from claiming the player. The Commissioner has the authority to revoke the waiver claim if in his judgement the claiming club had such a purpose.

04-01-2015, 04:17 PM	#20
SirMichaelJordan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 2,716	Claiming players off waivers and then immediately trading Just throwing this out there as I dont know if this is an issue or not But maybe the team wasn't watching the waiver wire or cared for the player until you bought him to their attention lol I mean that is a possibility right? Off topic but can a player be claimed in the rule 5 draft 2 years in a row? I've had that happen 3 times.