A poll about women's / mixed leagues

[Muzamba]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

All together now.........................Eeeeewwwwwww!Zamba's a beta tester!

I'm assuming that's the response you were wanting since that part of your post was basically irrelevant to the topic.

Well, kind of!

My original point was that I'm glad I have something OOTP-related to distract me from all of this nonsense.

But yeah, I am also emphasizing the fact that I'm trying to do something productive and constructive to help improve the game. Not that being a beta tester is any big deal. Pretty much anyone can be on the beta team if they just volunteer. Unfortunately, there are some people - and they know who they are - who would rather be armchair game developers and trash other people/ideas than to actually put forth the time or effort to help out.

So I guess in a way, I was calling attention to that fact. Thanks for noticing!

[Muzamba]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Well to be fair there has been some name calling on both sides in both this thread and the old thread linked here in an earlier post.

I feel I've made reasonable arguments why I am against women being added. I've also made suggestions that would simplify the process of adding women for the mod community. This suggestion would not only help out in adding women but could be used for any type of modded league.

And yet I've been told the only reason one could possibly oppose adding women is because they are blatantly sexist. Maybe it's just me but for some reason that really ticks me off.

I hadn't read the other thread before now, because I've seen this topic debated before in many previous threads - at least one of which I participated in myself. So I assumed it was just like this one.

To be honest, I didn't see that thread take a negative turn until PSU responded in post #29. It probably wasn't the fact that he called the idea dumb that lit the fuse, but the fact that he started slamming the people who were supporting it. Calling people "nerds" isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in the context he was using the term, I can understand how it might have rubbed people the wrong way.

I'm not saying people should be calling other people names or hurling insults at one another, no matter which side of the fence they're on. So you're right. There were definitely some "pro-women" posts that crosses the line, too.

Let me clarify that my beef is not with you, Sweed. You have been respectful with your criticism of the idea and, as you pointed out, you have offered possible solutions and compromises. And fwiw, I never construed your stance on this subject as being sexist. I can see where some people might perceive opposition to women's leagues as sexist, but I don't feel that this is truly anyone's attitude in this forum.

The fact is, you and I are probably close to being on the same page. I agree 100% that having the game generate female players should be WAY down on the priority list and that bringing women into the OOTP universe would be better left to modders.

However, I do hope that someday, when hundreds of other features I consider more important have been added (and I literally have a list of a few hundred that are a higher priority than women players) I would support Markus allowing this option. Alternatively, I'd be okay with adding it sooner IF it could be done without wasting time and resources... like more than about 5-10 minutes. Would I ever personally use female players in a league? Maybe once, just for the novelty of it (and admittedly, for the principle of it, since I know some people are so fervently against it and I'm just a stinker like that! ) But I guarantee you it wouldn't hold my interest for more than about 2 minutes.

So, having established that I am personally not interested in women's leagues, why does all of this matter to me so much? Well, for one thing, it's obviously something that a fair number of people DO want. The poll numbers are somewhat even (although I would strongly suspect that the "No" votes would be significantly lower if "No Opinion" or "I don't care either way" were options) but the vast majority of posts are supportive of it at least being an option (if, of course, it doesn't distract Markus from other things, etc. etc.)

The other reason I'm supporting this is that I have a problem with a few people coming in and arbitrarily deciding for everyone else what should or shouldn't be considered for this game. Most of my OOTP wishlist includes features and functions that seem to be popular. But others may seem odd or even unnecessary. And while I absolutely welcome people's constructive criticism and offering their opinion that my idea is something they're not personally interested in, I sure don't want someone calling me "stupid" or a "nerd" (in a non-endearing way) just for suggesting something they don't like or understand.

So when I see people like Wolf and PSU ragging on the guys in this thread who are merely making suggestions, I find it extremely offensive.

Originally Posted by Sweed

As far as Wolf and PSU if someone doesn't like them than single them out. Please don't lump everyone together.

So far, I have generally avoided naming specific people. Honestly, my statements may apply to more than just Wolf and PSU, so I purposely try to direct it toward "whomever it may concern". I'm of the opinion that if I post something that doesn't apply to you, you shouldn't take offense to it. But I can see how that might sound like I'm lumping everyone together. So again, I want to clarify that my comments were not meant to be directed at you.

As for Wolf and PSU, I don't know either of these gentlemen personally. What I do know is that they have both posted plenty of relevant, intelligent, and insightful comments over the years. I happen to agree with both of them on some key issues. And perhaps most importantly, I believe they both ultimately want what's best for OOTP.

Having said this, I'm not a fan of their abrasive style. I can accept that they may not always have any real malice in their hearts when they "attack" other community members. Regardless, they both tend to convey a certain degree of arrogance in the way they address people in this forum, and that doesn't sit well with me. Granted, I'm sure they think I'm the one being arrogant - at least I'm pretty sure Wolf does, as he's implied as much before - for trying to act as "etiquette police" in this forum. But the fact is, I would even call someone out who was agreeing with me if they were needlessly berating another community member.

This isn't just about people's conduct on the OOTP boards. I believe in being polite to others no matter where you are. And if I see someone being pushed around, I do what I reasonably can to defend them. I simply don't condone the use of bullying tactics to inflict your will on others.

Wolf and PSU seem to have a different socio-political view than I do, and that's fine. For the umpteenth time, we don't have to agree on everything. But there's nothing wrong with having respectful, constructive dialogue.

And btw, if this debate seems to be one-sided as of late, it might have something to do with the fact that Wolf has apparently decided that I said something "ridiculous", in his opinion, and is therefore no longer engaging me in conversation. Which is fine. I'm beyond ready to let this topic die. Hopefully, the testosterone and macho pride in the room can dissipate enough to let this happen.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Not really, since women really exist and hobbits don't.

Really, since there will never be hobbit baseball leagues or women's baseball leagues.

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

No-one has ever ever asked for hobbit leagues (not in a serious way anyway)

And the same should be true of women's leagues.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Really, since there will never be hobbit baseball leagues or women's baseball leagues.

I'm sure people would have said that there would never be a women's basketball league before the WNBA happened.

Originally Posted by The Wolf

And the same should be true of women's leagues.

A women's league is at least possible in theory though. I've said this before, but if I'm ever rich enough I'm going to finance a women's baseball league.

[The Wolf]

For the record, with the exception of a couple of people who have been out of line in this thread, I have nothing bad to say about the people on the other side of this issue. I admire many of them. Yet I am certain that women's baseball leagues are a really stupid science fiction idea that will hurt OOTP in several ways. Those of us who wish the game to be reality-based as opposed to science-fiction based have, on the other hand, have to suffer a lot of bad things being said about us. This is courtesy of a very shabby tactic used in many arguments on this forum: the attempt to personalize the argument, to make it about me or PSUColonel or whoever instead of the silly idea that is the actual issue under discussion here. This tactic is employed by people who want to win at all costs but realize that they are losing the argument. Reducing the argument to "let's call so-and-so a name" or "don't you hate the way so-and-so is arguing" as has been done here, is bad behavior. Also, just like calling your opponent a Nazi in a political argument is almost always wrong, tarring everyone who opposes women's leagues as sexist is bad behavior as well and wrong to boot; I hate the very idea of women's leagues in OOTP but yet could not possibly be considered a sexist.

Women's baseball leagues have never existed in real life, don't exist, and never will exist, and are, were, and always will be a bad science fiction idea in OOTP and a waste of developer time. That's what this argument is about. Cry and company want science fiction to be part of OOTP, and those of us on the other side don't. Any meta-argument is just an attempt to avoid that reality.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

A women's league is at least possible in theory though.

So is a league of trained bears. Come back when you've seen one of either.

[Cryomaniac]

I think a lot of the problem that people are having with the argument is the use of the phrase "science fiction".

I also don't really agree with the premise that a women's league "never will exist". There's no way to know that for sure. As I said, I'm guessing that if you'd asked people before the WNBA was founded people would have said the same things about that.

I've never argued that it isn't a "waste of time" as such. I've always said it's low priority and will continue to do so.

[Chicagofan76]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Women's baseball leagues have never existed in real life, don't exist, and never will exist, and are, were, and always will be a bad science fiction idea in OOTP and a waste of developer time. That's what this argument is about. Cry and company want science fiction to be part of OOTP, and those of us on the other side don't. Any meta-argument is just an attempt to avoid that reality.

Why do u keep saying this? A League Of Their Own is based off of a real womens league.

All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Players Association

It lasted 11 Sns.

[fintach]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

I think a lot of the problem that people are having with the argument is the use of the phrase "science fiction".

That's been the problem for me. To call it science fiction is the same as saying, "It is impossible with our current level of science and technology for eighteen women to, of their own accord, pick up baseballs, bats and gloves and play a game of baseball, even against each other."

I've seen women do all of those things, so I know it's possible. No, I've never seen people pay to watch them play, but that's not the point. If it is possible for them to decide to play baseball and do so, it is possible for them to form a league. Thus, no special advancements in science or technology are necessary, thus the idea of a women's league is not science fiction.

Please realize that the question is not whether or not the top female athletes could compete on equal footing with the top male athletes. Whether or not that's possible I'll leave to others to debate.

My point is this: an active women's baseball league would be fiction, not science fiction, and OOTP supports fictional setups. Therefore if a fictional player wants to have a women's league going in his baseball universe, he should be able to. (I do note the irony of using a masculine pronoun for the OOTP player, but English does not have a genderless pronoun for human beings, and using "his or her" seemed excessive.)

If my previous phrasing seemed confrontational or accusatory, then I hope you'll excuse it. I may have been caught up in the moment, and not checked it over.

Now, as to implementation:

Do I consider this a priority? Personally, I do not. I have no current plans for a women's league, and not enough free time to put one together just to do it. There are other issues with the game I would rather see take higher priority. I'd list them, but this isn't the thread for it.

Can this be handled by mods? That's probably the immediate solution. I do think that, over the long run, the game would benefit from the inclusion of women. It might expand the player base, which I consider a good thing, as well as providing an option for people who saw and enjoyed A League of Their Own.

Caveat: I don't pretend that my opinion in this forum has any bearing on Markus' priorities. If Markus decides women will be added to the game (no doubt as an option), then they will be added when he's good and ready.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Chicagofan76

Why do u keep saying this? A League Of Their Own is based off of a real womens league.

All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Players Association

It lasted 11 Sns.

I don't think he considers the AAGPBL to be real baseball.

Originally Posted by fintach

Can this be handled by mods? That's probably the immediate solution.

Agreed, and to that end I intend to make a women's league quickstart for OOTP 12 when it's released.

[Athletics17]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Women's baseball leagues have never existed in real life, don't exist, and never will exist, and are, were, and always will be a bad science fiction idea.

Just want to say I love your tenacity.

I do realize that the game rule were not the exact same as MLB. But given the evolution from 1943 to 1954, the game was becoming more similar to men's baseball. By the end of the league they were pitching overhand with the same ball size. Basepaths were 5 feet shorter and the pitching mound was 6" shorter. The strategy was the same. Little League baseball is has only 60 feet basepaths and the mound is 46" away. Is that not 'real' baseball.

We can make the argument that the deadball era wasn't real baseball because the ball wasn't wound as tight as it is today. But that would be my opinion.

I would to know your exact definition of the baseball, because I haven't heard it. All I hear is your opinion and not many facts. We can go back prior to 1900 and discount the American Association, Player's League, the initial National League and all the leagues before because it wasn't the exact game played today.

I respect your opinion, but I do not agree with. Because it is an opinion. To say it never existed....is a little far fetched. We can just say we can agree to disagree.


AAGPBL Rule of play

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Muzamba

I hadn't read the other thread before now, because I've seen this topic debated before in many previous threads - at least one of which I participated in myself. So I assumed it was just like this one.

To be honest, I didn't see that thread take a negative turn until PSU responded in post #29. It probably wasn't the fact that he called the idea dumb that lit the fuse, but the fact that he started slamming the people who were supporting it. Calling people "nerds" isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in the context he was using the term, I can understand how it might have rubbed people the wrong way.

I'm not saying people should be calling other people names or hurling insults at one another, no matter which side of the fence they're on. So you're right. There were definitely some "pro-women" posts that crosses the line, too.

Let me clarify that my beef is not with you, Sweed. You have been respectful with your criticism of the idea and, as you pointed out, you have offered possible solutions and compromises. And fwiw, I never construed your stance on this subject as being sexist. I can see where some people might perceive opposition to women's leagues as sexist, but I don't feel that this is truly anyone's attitude in this forum.

The fact is, you and I are probably close to being on the same page. I agree 100% that having the game generate female players should be WAY down on the priority list and that bringing women into the OOTP universe would be better left to modders.

However, I do hope that someday, when hundreds of other features I consider more important have been added (and I literally have a list of a few hundred that are a higher priority than women players) I would support Markus allowing this option. Alternatively, I'd be okay with adding it sooner IF it could be done without wasting time and resources... like more than about 5-10 minutes. Would I ever personally use female players in a league? Maybe once, just for the novelty of it (and admittedly, for the principle of it, since I know some people are so fervently against it and I'm just a stinker like that! ) But I guarantee you it wouldn't hold my interest for more than about 2 minutes.

So, having established that I am personally not interested in women's leagues, why does all of this matter to me so much? Well, for one thing, it's obviously something that a fair number of people DO want. The poll numbers are somewhat even (although I would strongly suspect that the "No" votes would be significantly lower if "No Opinion" or "I don't care either way" were options) but the vast majority of posts are supportive of it at least being an option (if, of course, it doesn't distract Markus from other things, etc. etc.)

The other reason I'm supporting this is that I have a problem with a few people coming in and arbitrarily deciding for everyone else what should or shouldn't be considered for this game. Most of my OOTP wishlist includes features and functions that seem to be popular. But others may seem odd or even unnecessary. And while I absolutely welcome people's constructive criticism and offering their opinion that my idea is something they're not personally interested in, I sure don't want someone calling me "stupid" or a "nerd" (in a non-endearing way) just for suggesting something they don't like or understand.

So when I see people like Wolf and PSU ragging on the guys in this thread who are merely making suggestions, I find it extremely offensive.



So far, I have generally avoided naming specific people. Honestly, my statements may apply to more than just Wolf and PSU, so I purposely try to direct it toward "whomever it may concern". I'm of the opinion that if I post something that doesn't apply to you, you shouldn't take offense to it. But I can see how that might sound like I'm lumping everyone together. So again, I want to clarify that my comments were not meant to be directed at you.

As for Wolf and PSU, I don't know either of these gentlemen personally. What I do know is that they have both posted plenty of relevant, intelligent, and insightful comments over the years. I happen to agree with both of them on some key issues. And perhaps most importantly, I believe they both ultimately want what's best for OOTP.

Having said this, I'm not a fan of their abrasive style. I can accept that they may not always have any real malice in their hearts when they "attack" other community members. Regardless, they both tend to convey a certain degree of arrogance in the way they address people in this forum, and that doesn't sit well with me. Granted, I'm sure they think I'm the one being arrogant - at least I'm pretty sure Wolf does, as he's implied as much before - for trying to act as "etiquette police" in this forum. But the fact is, I would even call someone out who was agreeing with me if they were needlessly berating another community member.

This isn't just about people's conduct on the OOTP boards. I believe in being polite to others no matter where you are. And if I see someone being pushed around, I do what I reasonably can to defend them. I simply don't condone the use of bullying tactics to inflict your will on others.

Wolf and PSU seem to have a different socio-political view than I do, and that's fine. For the umpteenth time, we don't have to agree on everything. But there's nothing wrong with having respectful, constructive dialogue.

And btw, if this debate seems to be one-sided as of late, it might have something to do with the fact that Wolf has apparently decided that I said something "ridiculous", in his opinion, and is therefore no longer engaging me in conversation. Which is fine. I'm beyond ready to let this topic die. Hopefully, the testosterone and macho pride in the room can dissipate enough to let this happen.

Appreciate your post and agree with most of it. I certainly don't see you as part of the problem and only responded to your post as you said, to the effect, the name calling brings you back to defend those who were asking for a women's feature being insulted. I simply didn't want it to go unnoticed that this was also going on on both sides. I would much prefer a civil discussion without the hyperbole.

I may not like Wolf's or PSU's posting style but they both have contributed to many discussions of the game and, I believe, have the best interest of the game at heart. I don't want to nor am able to speak for them but see them as simply arguing against something they think is a total waste of time. After all if one either isn't allowed to argue against something they don't agree with why have a discussion board at all? If one doesn't argue against then it is taken as everyone is on board with the proposed idea.

Myself I continue with my "support an included feature" argument. First requests come in with we just need pbp and name file. Then comes the face-gen. Next will be "sure I can tweak engine output but why should I? After all women's leagues are a feature and should work out of the box?"
How can Markus say no? What about the 3d engine promised for v13, will models of women be included? If not, why not? It's been said many times the hard coded parts of the text file is too hard to change but with women being a feature doesn't it have to be?

Give users the tools to mod the game, IE the option to choose pbp and name files for their leagues.

As far as the poll numbers I don't think the poll was set up the right way. Only options are yes\no as to whether ootp should allow women's leagues to be made "in game". I assume you voted yes but, as you have stated, will basically never use the feature. How many other yes votes are the same as yours?

IMHO the poll should have included something like..

Yes, I would certainly use women's leagues
Yes, though I would probably never use women's leagues
No, it's a feature I would never use.

The natural inclination of this board is to include almost anything and everything and that's fine, but IMHO it kind of skews the poll. Just as you say a "no opinion" could reduce the "no" vote I wonder how many of our yes votes would actually use the feature other than as a one time novelty or simply not at all.

[Cryomaniac]

The reason I set up the poll in that way is because I'm not a huge fan of having "don't care / no opinion" as an option, mostly because it tends to split the no vote more than they yes vote, and I'm also not really a fan of graduated polls if they can be avoided.

Had I included only "yes", "no" and "Don't care", I could have been accused of setting it up to favour the yes vote.

[PSUColonel]

I for one apologize for referring to those who seem to support this as "dorks". I crossed the line there and for that I am very sorry. It is not my intent to polarize people, but I guess sometimes in the heat of debate that can happen. Having said that, I do feel a feature such as this is in fact a total waste of time. Development resources do not need to go into something like this when there are so many other priorities on the list. I guess I just couldn't understand how some people can't see that.

[paulskln]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I for one apologize for referring to those who seem to support this as "dorks". I crossed the line there and for that I am very sorry. It is not my intent to polarize people, but I guess sometimes in the heat of debate that can happen. Having said that, I do feel a feature such as this is in fact a total waste of time. Development resources do not need to go into something like this when there are so many other priorities on the list. I guess I just couldn't understand how some people can't see that.

if everybody wanted the same thing the world would be a pretty dull thing...everyones priorities are different...maybe some want females added to the game as a priority including me.

[Gern44]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

The reason I set up the poll in that way is because I'm not a huge fan of having "don't care / no opinion" as an option...

Not to further polarize the issue... my opinion on Polls in general is that Yes and No are the only ways to go. If you don't have an opinion... then don't vote.

On this issue, I voted Yes, though its not something Id likely use.

The inclusion of Women's Leagues in OOTP would not detract from the Gameplay in any way for those that dont want it, but would benefit those that do want it.

I enjoyed A League of Their Own quite a bit and respect the history of baseball, including womens baseball.

If you are someone that dismisses the fact that there was a Woman's Baseball League, do you also dismiss the fact that there was a Negro League? Which is an intergral part of Baseballs history. How can you dismiss one, and not the other?... and how can you possibly dismiss any part of history?

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

...Development resources do not need to go into something like this when there are so many other priorities on the list...

This is a valid point. But this particular poll doesnt prioritize the issue, it simply asked if Women's Leagues were something people wanted.

[statfreak]

Originally Posted by paulskln

if everybody wanted the same thing the world would be a pretty dull thing...everyones priorities are different...maybe some want females added to the game as a priority including me.

and the fact woman leagues are already able to be accomplished in the current version of the game (albeit with a little bit of work) doesn't deter you in the least for asking they be included?

I understand everyone thinking their wants and needs should have top priority. Hell, I'd still love a true head to head experience without have to use third party software or giving control of my computer to another.

The thing I don't understand is how so many people can claim to want this feature, but most aren't willing to take the steps necessary to do it in their game now. Change the name files, where possible edit he to she, and use whatever pics / facegen images you want to represent the woman. It's already possible, just like head to head is possible using teamspeak and similar programs.

Sorry for bringing up head to head. That has been my "priority" for the last 9 years.

[Cooleyvol]

Originally Posted by statfreak

and the fact woman leagues are already able to be accomplished in the current version of the game (albeit with a little bit of work) doesn't deter you in the least for asking they be included?

I understand everyone thinking their wants and needs should have top priority. Hell, I'd still love a true head to head experience without have to use third party software or giving control of my computer to another.

The thing I don't understand is how so many people can claim to want this feature, but most aren't willing to take the steps necessary to do it in their game now. Change the name files, where possible edit he to she, and use whatever pics / facegen images you want to represent the woman. It's already possible, just like head to head is possible using teamspeak and similar programs.

Sorry for bringing up head to head. That has been my "priority" for the last 9 years.

Agreed.

It would take VERY little time to do this. In fact, if we can put this thread to rest, I will edit the news.xml file for a woman's league and post it here if some would like it. I see no way you could have a news.xml file for mixed leagues however. You'd always have instances of a news item saying 'he' when its talking about a woman and vice versa.

A full female news.xml file is very doable. Who wants one?

[paulskln]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

Agreed.

It would take VERY little time to do this. In fact, if we can put this thread to rest, I will edit the news.xml file for a woman's league and post it here if some would like it. I see no way you could have a news.xml file for mixed leagues however. You'd always have instances of a news item saying 'he' when its talking about a woman and vice versa.

A full female news.xml file is very doable. Who wants one?

please do make a female news.xml file...i am creating a AAGPBL file at the moment...the main thing i find frustrating is trying to get the facegen thing to look like females.

[Athletics17]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

Agreed.

It would take VERY little time to do this. In fact, if we can put this thread to rest, I will edit the news.xml file for a woman's league and post it here if some would like it. I see no way you could have a news.xml file for mixed leagues however. You'd always have instances of a news item saying 'he' when its talking about a woman and vice versa.

A full female news.xml file is very doable. Who wants one?

If you don't mind I would like this too. At first I though I would never use this option. But know that I thought and argued about it, I would like to see how the game would handle it. I am not worried about the 'he' and 'she' thing. I am creative enough.