Thread for player identification in team photos

[UKBaseballfan]

Thanks for the identification proposals.

I believe being listed at 6'3" Al Kellogg is the tallest of all players we are reviewing, I prefer him as 3rd from left of the back row. Mickey Keliher is listed at 6' and as a result suggest he is second from left of the back row.

Support the placements you have provided for Ralph Capron, Hal Grover, Ham Hyatt and Howie Camnitz. Also have inserted Butts Wagner into the 1913 Spring Training image.

Attached is the exemplar I have been using for Harry Gardner, it leads me to suggest he is second from right of the bottom row.

Lefty Leifield possesses a notable chin feature which persuades me that he could be ninth from left in the top row. Candidate for extreme left of the top row suggest Bill (Rebel) Keen, top row fifth from left as Raymond Haley, top row fifth from right as Bruce Noel, top row eighth from left as Cliff Averett and bottom row extreme right as Bill Irving.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Thanks for the identification proposals.

I believe being listed at 6'3" Al Kellogg is the tallest of all players we are reviewing, I prefer him as 3rd from left of the back row. Mickey Keliher is listed at 6' and as a result suggest he is second from left of the back row.

Support the placements you have provided for Ralph Capron, Hal Grover, Ham Hyatt and Howie Camnitz. Also have inserted Butts Wagner into the 1913 Spring Training image.

Attached is the exemplar I have been using for Harry Gardner, it leads me to suggest he is second from right of the bottom row.

Lefty Leifield possesses a notable chin feature which persuades me that he could be ninth from left in the top row. Candidate for extreme left of the top row suggest Bill (Rebel) Keen, top row fifth from left as Raymond Haley, top row fifth from right as Bruce Noel, top row eighth from left as Cliff Averett and bottom row extreme right as Bill Irving.

The remaining 'ballplayer' does appear to be a misfit in the bottom row third from left, looks more like a band leader to me?

I had thought Robinson was taller than he was (he is listed at 5'11"), so I agree now with Kellogg, and your placement of Robinson. I also agree with Leifield, Keen, Haley, Kelly, Noel, Averett, and Irving.

You've stated that you agree with my placement of Camnitz, but you've also placed Keliher there (second from left in the top row). I think it's a pretty good match for Camnitz. I still like Keliher fourth from the left.

The man third from the left in the bottom row appears to be wearing a Pirates jersey under his sweater, as well as a Pirates cap, so I do think he is a ballplayer. He is identified as Wally Rehg in your earlier post. That would leave only the third from the right in the bottom unidentified. It could be Ona Dodd; I wish there were a better image of him.


Camnitz / ? / Keliher / ?

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

I had thought Robinson was taller than he was (he is listed at 5'11"), so I agree now with Kellogg, and your placement of Robinson. I also agree with Leifield, Keen, Haley, Kelly, Noel, Averett, and Irving.

You've stated that you agree with my placement of Camnitz, but you've also placed Keliher there (second from left in the top row). I think it's a pretty good match for Camnitz. I still like Keliher fourth from the left.

The man third from the left in the bottom row appears to be wearing a Pirates jersey under his sweater, as well as a Pirates cap, so I do think he is a ballplayer. He is identified as Wally Rehg in your earlier post. That would leave only the third from the right in the bottom unidentified. It could be Ona Dodd; I wish there were a better image of him.


Camnitz / ? / Keliher / ?

I mispoke when I said in the bottom row third from left, I meant third from right.

Thanks for pointing out that I was confused in nominating 2 players for the same placement. I agree with Camnitz second from left top row. Suggest Keliher as the bottom row extreme right. By a process of elimination that would leave Irving as the player third from right in the bottom row.

Attached is the exemplar I have been using for Ona Dodd

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

I mispoke when I said in the bottom row third from left, I meant third from right.

Thanks for pointing out that I was confused in nominating 2 players for the same placement. I agree with Camnitz second from left top row. Suggest Keliher as the bottom row extreme right. By a process of elimination that would leave Irving as the player third from right in the bottom row.

Attached is the exemplar I have been using for Ona Dodd

That is a much better image of Dodd than the one I had found in the newspaper.

I think that Keliher is a better match for the player in the top row, fourth from the left. In addition to the facial features matching (as well as can be determined, given the graininess of the images), he is wearing the same hat in both pictures. The newspaper photo that I am using was published on March 10th, 1912, and Keliher wore the same hat as the others, light-colored with a dark brim, the style worn by the Pirates in the early 1910s. The photo that we are IDing is dated March 22nd. Why would Keliher have worn another team's cap on the 22nd, if he already had a Pirates' cap two weeks earlier?

Dodd's face is a good match for the player in the bottom row, far right. He has the same distinctive jawline, nose, and ears, and he seems to have a high hairline. Not only that, but in the exemplar you've provided, he is wearing the same baseball cap, dark colored with white piping.

Keliher / top row 4th left / bottom row far right / Dodd

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

By a process of elimination that would leave Irving as the player third from right in the bottom row.

Irving is a good match for third from the right in the bottom row. See my previous message for my thoughts on Dodd and Keliher.

Irving / bottom row third from right

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

That is a much better image of Dodd than the one I had found in the newspaper.

I think that Keliher is a better match for the player in the top row, fourth from the left. In addition to the facial features matching (as well as can be determined, given the graininess of the images), he is wearing the same hat in both pictures. The newspaper photo that I am using was published on March 10th, 1912, and Keliher wore the same hat as the others, light-colored with a dark brim, the style worn by the Pirates in the early 1910s. The photo that we are IDing is dated March 22nd. Why would Keliher have worn another team's cap on the 22nd, if he already had a Pirates' cap two weeks earlier?

Dodd's face is a good match for the player in the bottom row, far right. He has the same distinctive jawline, nose, and ears, and he seems to have a high hairline. Not only that, but in the exemplar you've provided, he is wearing the same baseball cap, dark colored with white piping.

Keliher / top row 4th left / bottom row far right / Dodd

Very persuasive arguments especially the hat evidence. I have been putting too much emphasis on the information that stated Keliher was 6' whereas the image suggests he is much closer to 5'8".

[Ilove_Telin54]

Originally Posted by rlumpkin1@tampabay.rr.com

Can anyone I'd anyone in this team photo of 1970 Clinton Pilots? Thank you to any response.

i found unedited

[UKBaseballfan]

Wikipedia has a team photo which is labelled Spring Training 1913.

Is anyone aware of the publication of the identifications of the players in the image, as far as I can see they do not appear on the Wikipedia page.

It appears that the image provided by RUKen below can be used as a very significant aide in terms of identifying the players

Top Row (l-r)

Fred Clarke, Bernie Duffy (wc), Toby Fullerton (wc), Sam Brenigan, George McQuillan, Marty O'Toole, Mike Mitchell, Dixie McArthur, Babe Adams, Bob Coleman (wc),Jim Kelly, Joe Conzleman, Loyd Waite (wc), Al Mamaux (wc), Honus Wagner (wc), Erv Kantlehner (wc), Jake Kafora, George Gibson

Bottom Row

Doug Baird, Bob Harmon (wc), Gil Britton, Ham Hyatt, Chick Fraser, George Watson (wc),Ed Mensor, Max Carey, Ed Konetchy, Flame Delhi, Wilbur Cooper, Johnny Daley (wc), Mike Mowrey, Joe Leonard (wc), Alex McCarthy (wc), Joe Kelly, Jim Viox (wc)

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Wikipedia has a team photo which is labelled Spring Training 1913.

Is anyone aware of the publication of the identifications of the players in the image, as far as I can see they do not appear on the Wikipedia page.

This photo was sold by both RMY Auctions and Hake Auctions, and neither listing included IDs for the players.

A quick check of the newspapers revealed that first year that the Pirates trained in Dawson Springs, Kentucky, was 1914, not 1913.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by RUKen

This photo was sold by both RMY Auctions and Hake Auctions, and neither listing included IDs for the players.

A quick check of the newspapers revealed that first year that the Pirates trained in Dawson Springs, Kentucky, was 1914, not 1913.

The Pirates started their spring training in Dawson Springs in 1914, 1915, and 1916. Each year, they moved on to another site when the weather in Dawson Springs was too cold or snowy to train there. I've attached a group photo of the team in Dawson Springs (not the same as the one just posted) that was published in the Pittsburgh Daily Post on March 14th, 1914. The caption names all of the players pictured. If the other photo is from the same spring, this will be useful for determining who was there.

[UKBaseballfan]

Again thank you so much for the research and the posting of useful images.

The players in the 2 images appear to be wearing the same jackets. If Jim Viox is extreme right bottom row in the first image he appears to be dressed the same way in both images.

Neither the white caps or the vertical dark stripe down the front of the uniform was part of the uniform in either 1915 or 1916. That does not rule out Spring Training 1915 but would appear to eliminate 1916.

Ed Mensor and Ed Konetchy like Viox are not wearing the tartan like jackets in the second image. Likewise they could be seventh (Mensor) and ninth (Konetchy) from left in the bottom row in the first photo.

There are 35 people in the first image, 34 are in uniform, 13 are wearing white caps. There are 35 people in the second image, including 1 official and 1 coach, players wearing white caps are :- Watson, Wagner, Duffy, McCarthy, Fullerton, Coleman, Wait, Leonard, Daley, Kantlehner, Mamaux, Harmon and Viox (13)

Konetchy was traded from St. Louis in December 1913 and jumped to the Federal League Pittsburgh team before the start of the 1915 season.

[RUKen]

March 1914 Pittsburgh Pirates at Dawson Springs

Konetchy is in the middle of the front row. This must be a 1914 image.

My IDs (after much back and forth with UKBaseballfan):

Back row (L-R)
1) Fred Clarke 2) Barney Duffy 3) Toby Fullerton 4) Sam Brenegan 5) George McQuillan 6) Marty O'Toole 7) Mike Mitchell 8) Ollie McArthur 9) Babe Adams 10) Bob Coleman 11) Jim Kelly 12) Joe Conzelman 13) Lloyd Wait 14) Al Mamaux 15) Honus Wagner 16) Erv Kantlehner 17) Frank Kafora 18) George Gibson

Front row (L-R)
1) Douglas Baird 2) Bob Harmon 3) Gil Britton 4) Ham Hyatt 5) Al "Butts" Wagner 6) George Watson 7) Ed Mensor 8) Max Carey 9) Ed Konetchy 10) Flame Delhi 11) Wilbur Cooper 12) Johnny Daley 13) Mike Mowrey 14) Joe Leonard 15) Alex McCarthy 16) Joe Kelly 17) Jimmie Viox

Coach Chick Fraser was also in camp with the team. Pitcher Bernie Doyle joined them later, in Hot Springs.

I differ from UKBaseballfan's ID assignments only for the older-looking man in the front row, fifth from the left. I believe him to be Al Wagner (brother of Honus), whereas UKB has identified him as Chick Fraser. Both Wagner and Fraser were coaches for the team during spring training that year.

This photo was turned into a colorized postcard back in the 1910s. I've attached a copy below. Note that the colorizer chose to put foliage on the trees on the left, when there was no foliage during the team's visit in March.

[UKBaseballfan]

Not sure if you noticed that I have also made a first attempt.

Identifications are included on the post showing the team photo. I have tried to match the players to the uniform that they are shown wearing in the second photo you posted. I think it possible the 2 photos were taken on the same day.

I am off to bed now will catch up with your suggestions tomorrow.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by RUKen

March 1914 Pittsburgh Pirates at Dawson Springs

Other players in camp were Douglas Baird, Sam Brenegan, Gil Britton, Flame Delhi, Bernie Duffie, Joe Leonard, George Watson, coaches Chick Fraser and Al Wagner.

I've attached newspaper images of a few of the more obscure players at the Pirates' camp.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Not sure if you noticed that I have also made a first attempt.

Identifications are included on the post showing the team photo. I have tried to match the players to the uniform that they are shown wearing in the second photo you posted. I think it possible the 2 photos were taken on the same day.

I am off to bed now will catch up with your suggestions tomorrow.

I've attached below images of Barney Duffy (head and shoulders only), Erving Kantlehner (hands behind head), and Lloyd Wait. See my previous message for images of additional obscure players.

[UKBaseballfan]

Do we have a first name for Daley is it Tom Daley?

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Do we have a first name for Daley is it Tom Daley?

No; Johnny Daley trained with the Pirates.

I have attached a head shot of Bernard "Bernie" Doyle. He looks a lot like Bob Harmon, which isn't helpful.

Edited to add: Doyle joined the team after they had moved from Dawson Springs to Hot Springs, so he cannot be in the photo under discussion. I am leaving this image here because it may be useful for other ID attempts.

[RUKen]

1914 Pittsburgh Pirates spring training

I've attached a 1908 newspaper image of Toby Fullerton. I believe he's a good match for the player two to the right of Ed Konetchy.

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

1914 Pittsburgh Pirates spring training

I've attached a 1908 newspaper image of Toby Fullerton. I believe he's a good match for the player two to the right of Ed Konetchy.

Yes he is, but the system I have been using which seems to be working well is that he should be wearing a white cap. The best match for that would be top row third from left where Watson has been placed. I think I am going to plump for that and move Watson between Mitchell and Mamaux.

Thanks for all the excellent photos, the image you have posted of Baird is the best I have seen.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Yes he is, but the system I have been using which seems to be working well is that he should be wearing a white cap. The best match for that would be top row third from left where Watson has been placed. I think I am going to plump for that and move Watson between Mitchell and Mamaux.

Thanks for all the excellent photos, the image you have posted of Baird is the best I have seen.

OK; I agree with Fullerton and Watson, but you have Mike Mitchell where I have Joe Conzelman. I have Mitchell in the rear, seventh from the left, and Wilbur Cooper eighth from the left, and you have Cooper and Conzelman, respectively, in those places. (All three are wearing dark caps.)