Thread for player identification in team photos

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

OK; I agree with Fullerton and Watson, but you have Mike Mitchell where I have Joe Conzelman. I have Mitchell in the rear, seventh from the left, and Wilbur Cooper eighth from the left, and you have Cooper and Conzelman, respectively, in those places. (All three are wearing dark caps.)

At this moment, our differences are top row 6th, 7th, 8th, 12th, and 17th from left, and bottom row, 1st, 5th, 6th, 10th, 11th, 12th, and 16th from left. I think the graininess of the photo, and the similarity in appearances of some of the players, may make it hard to resolve all of these.

Both Conzelman and Mitchell appear to be wearing the tartan jacket. A small minority of players appear to be wearing a plain dark jacket. The player 8th from left appears to be one of those wearing a plain jacket. So my suggestion of Conzelman appears to be wrong, it is more difficult to establish the jacket Cooper is wearing but the sleeve above his hand appears to show a pattern indicating he is wearing a tartan jacket which would indicate that he is more likely to be seventh from left than eighth. 9 players are wearing the plain jacket. So the next stage should be to pick out the 9 players wearing a plain jacket in the second photo.

First person working from the top and left to right wearing a plain jacket is Watson who also has a white cap. This combination validates the position we have for him.

Second player wearing a plain jacket is Brenegan that also validates the position we have for him.

Third player wearing a plain jacket is Wagner which also validates his position, I don't think we needed that validation.

Fourth player in the bottom row wearing a plain jacket and also capless is Jim Kelly which validates his position.

Fifth player wearing a plain jacket and also a white cap is Daley which again validates his place.

Sixth player wearing a plain jacket and also a white cap is Kantlehner which would validate a position 3rd from right in the top row but not sixth from left in the top row.

Seventh player wearing a plain jacket and also a white cap is Waite who I now have as 6th player in the bottom row.

Eight player wearing a plain jacket and also a white cap is Toby Fullerton which validates his position.

Struggling to find the 9th plain jacket Gibson, McArthur or Cooper is a possibilty.

[RUKen]

I noticed that Chick Fraser is wearing a white cap in the newspaper photo, but you've identified him as the man in the front row, fifth from the left, who is wearing a dark cap. I had placed Al Wagner in that position. Fraser had a boyish face. The square jawline and his eyes, to me, look more like Wagner's.

Fraser 1908 / Fraser 1912 / coach / Al Wagner 1913 / Al Wagner 1910s (from Honus Wagner bio)

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

I noticed that Chick Fraser is wearing a white cap in the newspaper photo, but you've identified him as the man in the front row, fifth from the left, who is wearing a dark cap. I had placed Al Wagner in that position. Fraser had a boyish face. The jawline to me looks more like Wagner.

Fraser 1908 / Fraser 1912 / coach / Al Wagner (from our 1913 IDs)

I have placed Fraser on the extreme of that row with the dark cap and Waite next to him to his left wearing the white cap. If you count up the number of players in each row although Fraser is slightly behind Waite I don't believe he is included in the row above, as the 7th player but in the third row as the 12th player.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

I have placed Fraser on the extreme of that row with the dark cap and Wait next to him to his left wearing the white cap. If you count up the number of players in each row although Fraser is slightly behind Wait I don't believe he is included in the row above.

You're right; two of the men on the step behind are included with those below. Since Fraser is listed last, he must be the one with the dark cap on the upper step.

I haven't changed my mind about the appearance of the coach in the front row of the photo we're working on, but I agree that the cap is not contradictory.

[UKBaseballfan]

I agree with your placements for Mitchell and Conzelman and Cooper could be the 9th player in a plain jacket which would validate your place for him.

Concluded that Coleman should be the player in a white hat and tartan jacket between Adams and Kelly. Kantlehner where Coleman was previously placed in the back row and Waite where Kantlehner was placed in the front row.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

I agree with your placements for Mitchell and Conzelman and Cooper could be the 9th player in a plain jacket which would validate your place for him.

Concluded that Coleman should be the player in a white hat and tartan jacket between Adams and Kelly. Kantlehner where Coleman was previously placed in the back row and Waite where Kantlehner was placed in the front row.

I agree with Coleman in the back row #10. I don't object to Kantlehner in the back row #16. I would put Wait in the back row #6. I have Joe Kelley in the front row #6; I think his face is a better match.

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

I agree with Coleman in the back row #10. I don't object to Kantlehner in the back row #16. I would put Wait in the back row #6. I have Joe Kelley in the front row #6; I think his face is a better match.

But Joe Kelly is neither wearing a white cap or a plain jacket which Waite is, in the newspaper photo? Is it possible that Joe Kelly and McQuillan should be exchanged, would that work?

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

But Joe Kelly is neither wearing a white cap or a plain jacket which Waite is, in the newspaper photo? Is it possible that Joe Kelly and McQuillan should be exchanged, would that work?

McQuillan has a very distinctive face, and I'm pretty certain we've got him identified correctly. I withdraw my objection to having Kelly in the back row next to McQuillan. I think it may be someone other than Wait in the front row in the white cap and plain jacket; the face doesn't seem to me to be a good match.

By the way, I noticed in the newspaper accounts that Bob Harmon left Dawson Springs a day earlier than everyone else to take care of personal business at home, with plans to rejoin them in Hot Springs. That means either that the photo at the hotel was not taken just before the team left for Hot Springs, or that Harmon is misidentified in the photo. I'm inclined to think that the photo was taken earlier, but that the newspaper editor wanted it to seem up to date.

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

McQuillan has a very distinctive face, and I'm pretty certain we've got him identified correctly. I withdraw my objection to having Kelly in the back row next to McQuillan. I think it may be someone other than Wait in the front row in the white cap and plain jacket; the face doesn't seem to me to be a good match. We know that there were more players at Dawson Springs than there were in either picture, and that the photos were taken at two different locations in town (the hotel and the spa). There could be substitutions.

By the way, I noticed in the newspaper accounts that Bob Harmon left Dawson Springs a day earlier than everyone else to take care of personal business at home, with plans to rejoin them in Hot Springs. That means either that the photo at the hotel was not taken just before the team left for Hot Springs, or that Harmon is misidentified in the photo. I'm inclined to think that the photo was taken earlier, but that the newspaper editor wanted it to seem up to date.

If the player in the front row sixth from left isn't Waite then I would suggest as an alternative George Watson. Then there could be either a direct exchange with Waite or maybe a 3 way exchange involving either Fullerton or Kantlehner.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

If the player in the front row sixth from left isn't Waite then I would suggest as an alternative George Watson. Then there could be either a direct exchange with Waite or maybe a 3 way exchange involving either Fullerton or Kantlehner.

That's a good suggestion. I think it's Watson sixth from left in the front, and Wait next to Mamaux in the rear.

[UKBaseballfan]

Note that Dixie McArthur is listed at 6'1". I wonder if he is and not Wilbur Cooper is the 9th player in the newspaper image wearing a plain jacket. that would place him and not Cooper between Mitchell and Adams. Cooper is listed at 5'11". Mitchell is listed at 6'1" and Adams at 5'11" The 9th player does appear to be more comparable in height to Mitchell than Adams. Moving McArthur from the second from right on the top row would free the place for Kafora and Cooper could be moved to seventh from right in the bottom row.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Note that Dixie McArthur is listed at 6'1". I wonder if he is and not Wilbur Cooper is the 9th player in the newspaper image wearing a plain jacket. that would place him and not Cooper between Mitchell and Adams. Cooper is listed at 5'11". Mitchell is listed at 6'1" and Adams at 5'11" The 9th player does appear to be more comparable in height to Mitchell than Adams. Moving McArthur from the second from right on the top row would free the place for Kafora and Cooper could be moved to seventh from right in the bottom row.

I agree with Ollie McArthur (as he is called in the newspaper accounts) in the back row, eighth from the left; Wilbur Cooper in the front row, seventh from the right; Frank Kafora in the back row, second from the right (I had previously placed him here among my IDs).

I also feel strongly that in the front row it is Al Wagner fifth from the left. See my post #282.

One more change--I am now convinced that Marty O'Toole is in the back row, sixth from left, trading places with Joe Kelly, who should be in the front row, second from right. See the images below. These are the only remaining differences between our IDs.

O'Toole / BR 6L / Kelly / FR 2R

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

I agree with Ollie McArthur (as he is called in the newspaper accounts) in the back row, eighth from the left; Wilbur Cooper in the front row, seventh from the right; Frank Kafora in the back row, second from the right (I had previously placed him here among my IDs).

I also feel strongly that in the front row it is Al Wagner fifth from the left and Artie Butler twelfth from the left. See my posts #282 and #290.

One more change--I am now convinced that Marty O'Toole is in the back row, sixth from left, trading places with Joe Kelly, who should be in the front row, second from right. See the images below. These are the only remaining differences between our IDs.

O'Toole / BR 6L / Kelly / FR 2R

Agree that O'Toole should be placed in the top row sixth from left and Joe Kelly in the bottom row second from right.

[UKBaseballfan]

I have long been confused by the image of O'Toole often used, particularly on Baseball-Reference as it does not seem to be representative of other images of Marty O'Toole. In an attempt to resolve this issue I wanted to see if it was possible to find the source of this image.

The image is shown in the Harwell collection, originally being published in the Sporting News, and has been misleading and lead to O'Toole being attached to the Kelly image (on the right as we look) and vice versa.

Identification as O'Toole as the player on the left as we look at it would be consistent with other images O'Toole. Kelly being the player on the right as we look at it. So the image of O'Toole on B-R is actually Billy Kelly.

Somewhat ironic given the above problem in confusing O'Toole with another Kelly.

[RUKen]

I have just found an image of Johnny Daley's face from a composite of the Columbus team in 1914. I agree that he is a good match for the front row, twelfth from left.

FR 12L / Daley

[UKBaseballfan]

Staying on the theme of unidentified team photos of the Pirates from the dead-ball era, this image has been dated 1908. I am unaware of any identifications for this photo. If anyone is aware of the players shown be most grateful for the information.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Staying on the theme of unidentified team photos of the Pirates from the dead-ball era, this image has been dated 1908. I am unaware of any identifications for this photo. If anyone is aware of the players shown be most grateful for the information.

1908 Pittsburg Pirates spring training
Many of those same players (perhaps all of them) are in a photo published (with names) in the St. Louis Post Dispatch on April 13, 1908, attached below. The player with the S insignia on his jersey is Paddy O'Connor, who had played for Springfield in 1907. The player with the C insignia on his cap and shirt sleeve is Harley Young, who had played for Wichita. I have no idea why his uniform has Cs, but he is in the same uniform in a photo published in the Pittsburg Press on April 5, 1908, also attached below.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Staying on the theme of unidentified team photos of the Pirates from the dead-ball era, this image has been dated 1908. I am unaware of any identifications for this photo. If anyone is aware of the players shown be most grateful for the information.

1908 Pittsburg Pirates spring training

No need to compare faces with the photo from the St. Louis paper, here is a copy of that exact image, published in The Pittsburgh Post on March 20, 1908, with names.

Top Row: Harley Young, Lefty Leifield, Vic Willis, Warren Gill
Middle Row: Beals Becker, Royal "Hunky" Shaw, Ed Phelps, Ed Abbaticchio, Deacon Phillippe, Paddy O'Connor, Dal Alderman, Fred Clarke
Bottom Row: Tommy Leach, Danny Moeller, Caleb Shriver*, Cecil Neighbors, Howie Camnitz, Nick Maddox, Harry Swacina, Jim Kane, Harry "Buzz" Wetzel

*Shriver was sometimes referred to as "Pop" Shriver in the newspaper accounts, but he was not the same player as the former major leaguer known by that name.

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

1908 Pittsburg Pirates spring training

No need to compare faces with the photo from the St. Louis paper, here is a copy of that exact image, published in The Pittsburgh Post on March 20, 1908, with names.

Top Row: Harley Young, Lefty Leifield, Vic Willis, Warren Gill
Middle Row: Beals Becker, Royal "Hunky" Shaw, Ed Phelps, Ed Abbaticchio, Deacon Phillippe, Paddy O'Connor, Dal Alderman, Fred Clarke
Bottom Row: Tommy Leach, Danny Moeller, Caleb Shriver*, Cecil Neighbors, Howie Camnitz, Nick Maddox, Harry Swacina, Jim Kane, Harry "Buzz" Wetzel

*Shriver was sometimes referred to as "Pop" Shriver in the newspaper accounts, but he was not the same player as the former major leaguer known by that name.

Wonderful, thank you so much!

[UKBaseballfan]

Another Pittsburgh Pirates team photo, this one has a suggested date of 1906.

Again I have not seen names published for the players in the photo. If anyone can provide the names again be very grateful.

Suggested names are as follows :-

Top row (l-r)

Beaumont, Carisch, Leever, Clymer, x, Willis, x, Hallman

Middle Row

Wagner, Peitz, x, Ganley, x, Phillippe,x

Bottom Row

x, Ritchey, Clarke, Flaherty, Nealon, Leach