A three-way tie for the second Wild Card created chaos - Page 2

Nugget699 · 10-13-2013, 07:01 PM

At least you get tiebreakers! If you run a league without Play-Offs and two or more teams are tied for first the team alphabetically last is declared the champion.

LeiterFanatic · 10-13-2013, 07:10 PM

I'm more flabbergasted that Green &Gold Heart can't figure out cap logos after all these years

BoSoxFan · 10-13-2013, 07:19 PM

The Astros can win their division, and STILL not make the playoffs! Comedy gold, except for the people in the Astros organization, and their fans.

as5680 · 10-13-2013, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nugget699

At least you get tiebreakers! If you run a league without Play-Offs and two or more teams are tied for first the team alphabetically last is declared the champion.

I guess that would be the kind of situation where it would be vital to schedule the additional regular season game(s) manually - after the end of the of the final day's games and before the offseason starts.

Green & Gold Heart · 10-14-2013, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeiterFanatic

I'm more flabbergasted that Green &Gold Heart can't figure out cap logos after all these years

It works on the main player page and news stories, but for some reason never works on the schedule screen. I don't know why.

Thankfully I don't have that problem in the OTBA or they would've kicked me out of office long ago.

Nugget699 · 10-14-2013, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by as5680

I guess that would be the kind of situation where it would be vital to schedule the additional regular season game(s) manually - after the end of the of the final day's games and before the offseason starts.

Yeah that's how I get around it. Bit of a PITA though.

Le Grande Orange · 10-15-2013, 02:05 AM

From my testing, where OOTP tends to have trouble is when there's a tie scenario involving a tie for a division title which simultaneously involves a tie for a wild card berth. I'll post an example or two later on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nugget699

At least you get tiebreakers! If you run a league without Play-Offs and two or more teams are tied for first the team alphabetically last is declared the champion.

Another facet of the problem, unfortunately.

Although I would point out in real life there have been a couple of instances in the minor leagues where in a tie for first the tied clubs were declared co-champions and no tiebreaking game(s) were played. In most cases, however, there is some form of tiebreaking, either as games or specific non-game rules.

So I'd say there ought to be the option to either have the clubs declared co-champions (and the team and league histories properly reflect this); hold a tiebreaking game or series; or use a set of clearly defined non-game tiebreaking rules.

bwburke94 · 10-17-2013, 10:49 PM

At least there's an easy fix for them: First off, one-game playoffs should be a special game type (that counts in regular season standings) instead of being treated as normal regular season games. Second, ties should only be considered ties if:

1) The teams have the same number of wins and the same number of losses, excluding wins/losses from one-game playoffs (NOTE: Special coding needs to be in play for various scenarios with three to five teams, to avoid rematches in X-teams-for-two-spots tiebreakers.)
OR
2) The teams both have a .500 record, AND have identical records in one-game playoffs, AND (in wild card tiebreakers only) neither team was tied for a division title prior to one-game playoffs.

The second scenario is in there to cover 80-80 vs. 81-81 ties in historical "as played" schedules.

Le Grande Orange · 10-18-2013, 02:21 AM

Here's one of the more convoluted ties I had in a test league:

Code:

NORTH DIVISION        
x-Sterling      21  15  .583   —
  Lansing       13  23  .361   8.0
  Naperville     9  27  .250  12.0
  Grand Rapids   9  27  .250  12.0
             
CENTRAL DIVISION        
# Joliet        22  14  .611   —
# Cleveland     22  14  .611   —
  South Bend    21  15  .583   1.0
  Akron         13  23  .361   9.0
             
SOUTH DIVISION        
* Springfield   24  12  .667   —
* Peoria        24  12  .667   —
# St. Louis     22  14  .611   2.0
  Evansville    16  20  .444   8.0

Springfield and Peoria are tied for the South Division title, along with being tied for the first wild card spot; Joliet and Cleveland are tied for the South Division title, while being simultaneously tied with St. Louis for the second wild card spot. It's perhaps easier to see the tie scenarios going on by breaking down the standings into two portions, the division titles and the overall (wild card) standings.

Code:

DIVISION TITLE STANDINGS

Springfield  24-12  South
Peoria       24-12  South
---------------------------
Joliet       22-14  Central
Cleveland    22-14  Central
---------------------------
Sterling     21-15  North


OVERALL STANDINGS (Wild Cards)

  Springfield  24-12  first wild card
  Peoria       24-12  first wild card
--------------------------------------
  Joliet       22-14  second wild card
  Cleveland    22-14  second wild card
  St. Louis    22-14  second wild card
--------------------------------------
x-Sterling     21-15  North Division
  South Bend   21-15
  Evansville   16-20
  Akron        13-23
  Lansing      13-23
  Grand Rapids  9-27
  Naperville    9-27

Listed this way, the tie scenarios are more readily apparent. Settling the Springfield-Peoria division tie will also resolve their tie for the first wild card; settling the Joliet-Cleveland tie will still leave the loser tied with St. Louis for the second wild card.

Here is what OOTP did:

It had Joliet playing at Cleveland on the first day, which Cleveland won. On the second day, it had St. Louis playing at Joliet, which St. Louis won. Springfield and Peoria never played a game, even though they should have. I presume they didn't play because OOTP figured since they were both guaranteed to be in the playoffs anyway they didn't need to.

Here is what should have happened:

On the first day, Springfield plays at Peoria; the winner gets the South Division title and the loser is the first wild card. Also on the first day Cleveland plays at Joliet to determine the Central Division winner. On the second day, the loser of the Cleveland-Joliet game plays at St. Louis; the winner is the second wild card qualifier.

Le Grande Orange · 10-18-2013, 02:40 AM

Here is another interesting end-of-season result. (Had things gone a bit differently, it might have been a really wild scenario.)

Code:

EAST DIVISION        
x-Buffalo        19  17  .528   —
# Staten Island  18  18  .500   1.0
# Queens         18  18  .500   1.0
# Norfolk        18  18  .500   1.0
        
CENTRAL DIVISION        
x-Nashville      18  18  .500   —
  Winston-Salem  17  19  .472   1.0
  Charlotte      17  19  .472   1.0
  Chicago        16  20  .444   2.0
        
WEST DIVISION        
* San Diego      21  15  .583   —
* Fort Worth     21  15  .583   —
# Oklahoma City  18  18  .500   3.0
  Riverside      15  21  .417   6.0

Here are the standings broken down into their two portions:

Code:

DIVISION TITLE STANDINGS

San Diego   21-15  West Division
Fort Worth  21-15  West Division
-----------------------------------
Buffalo     19-17  East Division
-----------------------------------
Nashville   18-18  Central Division


OVERALL STANDING (Wild Cards)

  San Diego      21-15  first wild card 
  Fort Worth     21-15  first wild card
----------------------------------------
x-Buffalo        19-17  East Division
----------------------------------------
x-Nashville      18-18  Central Division
----------------------------------------
  Staten Island  18-18  second wild card
  Queens         18-18  second wild card
  Norfolk        18-18  second wild card
  Oklahoma City  18-18  second wild card
----------------------------------------
  Winston-Salem  17-19
  Charlotte      17-19
  Chicago        16-20
  Riverside      15-21

San Diego and Fort Worth are tied for the West Division title and first wild card; settling the division tie will also resolve the wild card tie. There's a four-way tie for the second wild card berth between Norfolk, Oklahoma City, Queens, and Staten Island.

Here is what OOTP did:

It scheduled Staten Island at Queens. That's it. Both Norfolk and Oklahoma City were left out, even though they should have been involved. There was also no game between San Diego and Fort Worth, even though there should have been.

Here is what should have happened:

On the first day, Fort Worth plays at San Diego; the winner gets the West Division title and the loser the first wild card. Also on the first day Norfolk plays at Queens and Oklahoma City plays at Staten Island. On the second day, the winner of Oklahoma City-Staten Island plays at the winner of Norfolk-Queens. The winner of this game is the second wild card qualifier.

Mister_G · 10-18-2013, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nugget699

At least you get tiebreakers! If you run a league without Play-Offs and two or more teams are tied for first the team alphabetically last is declared the champion.

I've played a few leagues with this setup and when I see this is a possibility I back the game up before the final game or two and then sim until I get one team with a better record. Could probably schedule the one-game playoff, but I felt this was easier.

Dutch Alexander · 10-18-2013, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nugget699

At least you get tiebreakers! If you run a league without Play-Offs and two or more teams are tied for first the team alphabetically last is declared the champion.

I ran a league without playoffs where each team plays 3 games a week. I found that the offseason always starts the day after the last playing round. If you schedule an extra regular season game manually as a tie-breaker, this seems to work at first. The standings change and there is no more tie. However if you progress to the next season, this extra game is lost in the league history and the team which is last in alphabettical order is listed as the champion, whether they won the extra game or not. I guess because the offseason had already started when this game was played OOTP doesn't recognize it as a regular season game.

So to prevent this I always included one extra game in my season schedule, scheduled about two weeks after the last playing round. After the last playing round when one team was outright champion I simply deleted this game manually. If there was a tie-breaker needed I still had a two week time frame to schedule a tie-breaker before the off season would start. After the tie-breaker I would then delete the extra game. This way the tie-breaker is recognized by OOTP as a regular season game and the correct champion is listed in the history.

Markus Heinsohn · 10-18-2013, 06:32 AM

Wow. That obviously should not have happened. I'll try to reproduce it and will fix this

Cryomaniac · 10-18-2013, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Wow. That obviously should not have happened. I'll try to reproduce it and will fix this

Could you look into the stuff LGO has posted too?

The Wolf · 10-18-2013, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Wow. That obviously should not have happened. I'll try to reproduce it and will fix this

Can you please fix ties in OOTP 15?

Padreman · 10-18-2013, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Wow. That obviously should not have happened. I'll try to reproduce it and will fix this

Never fear for Markus is here

Bowtie · 11-23-2013, 07:20 PM

If anyone here can confirm that this has been fixed in the latest update, please let us know.

Thanks!

Honorable_Pawn · 01-05-2014, 05:44 PM

Bump

actionjackson · 01-05-2014, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hefalumps

Wow - while this is quite amusing, if it had happened to me in my league, I'd be extremely upset and probably have to junk the whole league and recover from a midseason backup. Fortunately the league I'm running right now is in the 1950s so we don't even have the LCS yet, but I will definitely keep a close eye on tie situations like this going forward.

There was another thread on the forums recently about OOTP poorly handling tiebreaker scenarios and seeding with regards to home team advantage. I know the game can't possibly be tested to handle every possible scenario, but I do hope it gets a good strong look in 15.

Don't think you're out of the woods just because you're in the 1950's. How would your game handle it if there was a three way tie for the league lead?...Tick, Tick, Tick, BOOM! Chaos ensues.

10-13-2013, 07:10 PM	#22
LeiterFanatic All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 1,348	I'm more flabbergasted that Green &Gold Heart can't figure out cap logos after all these years Last edited by LeiterFanatic; 10-13-2013 at 07:12 PM.

10-13-2013, 07:19 PM	#23
BoSoxFan Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 480	The Astros can win their division, and STILL not make the playoffs! Comedy gold, except for the people in the Astros organization, and their fans. Last edited by BoSoxFan; 10-15-2013 at 05:24 PM. Reason: Hilariously terrible grammar due to a previous edit

10-18-2013, 02:21 AM	#29
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,644	Here's one of the more convoluted ties I had in a test league: Code: NORTH DIVISION x-Sterling 21 15 .583 — Lansing 13 23 .361 8.0 Naperville 9 27 .250 12.0 Grand Rapids 9 27 .250 12.0 CENTRAL DIVISION # Joliet 22 14 .611 — # Cleveland 22 14 .611 — South Bend 21 15 .583 1.0 Akron 13 23 .361 9.0 SOUTH DIVISION * Springfield 24 12 .667 — * Peoria 24 12 .667 — # St. Louis 22 14 .611 2.0 Evansville 16 20 .444 8.0 Springfield and Peoria are tied for the South Division title, along with being tied for the first wild card spot; Joliet and Cleveland are tied for the South Division title, while being simultaneously tied with St. Louis for the second wild card spot. It's perhaps easier to see the tie scenarios going on by breaking down the standings into two portions, the division titles and the overall (wild card) standings. Code: DIVISION TITLE STANDINGS Springfield 24-12 South Peoria 24-12 South --------------------------- Joliet 22-14 Central Cleveland 22-14 Central --------------------------- Sterling 21-15 North OVERALL STANDINGS (Wild Cards) Springfield 24-12 first wild card Peoria 24-12 first wild card -------------------------------------- Joliet 22-14 second wild card Cleveland 22-14 second wild card St. Louis 22-14 second wild card -------------------------------------- x-Sterling 21-15 North Division South Bend 21-15 Evansville 16-20 Akron 13-23 Lansing 13-23 Grand Rapids 9-27 Naperville 9-27 Listed this way, the tie scenarios are more readily apparent. Settling the Springfield-Peoria division tie will also resolve their tie for the first wild card; settling the Joliet-Cleveland tie will still leave the loser tied with St. Louis for the second wild card. Here is what OOTP did: It had Joliet playing at Cleveland on the first day, which Cleveland won. On the second day, it had St. Louis playing at Joliet, which St. Louis won. Springfield and Peoria never played a game, even though they should have. I presume they didn't play because OOTP figured since they were both guaranteed to be in the playoffs anyway they didn't need to. Here is what should have happened: On the first day, Springfield plays at Peoria; the winner gets the South Division title and the loser is the first wild card. Also on the first day Cleveland plays at Joliet to determine the Central Division winner. On the second day, the loser of the Cleveland-Joliet game plays at St. Louis; the winner is the second wild card qualifier. Last edited by Le Grande Orange; 10-18-2013 at 02:29 AM.

10-18-2013, 02:40 AM	#30
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,644	Here is another interesting end-of-season result. (Had things gone a bit differently, it might have been a really wild scenario.) Code: EAST DIVISION x-Buffalo 19 17 .528 — # Staten Island 18 18 .500 1.0 # Queens 18 18 .500 1.0 # Norfolk 18 18 .500 1.0 CENTRAL DIVISION x-Nashville 18 18 .500 — Winston-Salem 17 19 .472 1.0 Charlotte 17 19 .472 1.0 Chicago 16 20 .444 2.0 WEST DIVISION * San Diego 21 15 .583 — * Fort Worth 21 15 .583 — # Oklahoma City 18 18 .500 3.0 Riverside 15 21 .417 6.0 Here are the standings broken down into their two portions: Code: DIVISION TITLE STANDINGS San Diego 21-15 West Division Fort Worth 21-15 West Division ----------------------------------- Buffalo 19-17 East Division ----------------------------------- Nashville 18-18 Central Division OVERALL STANDING (Wild Cards) San Diego 21-15 first wild card Fort Worth 21-15 first wild card ---------------------------------------- x-Buffalo 19-17 East Division ---------------------------------------- x-Nashville 18-18 Central Division ---------------------------------------- Staten Island 18-18 second wild card Queens 18-18 second wild card Norfolk 18-18 second wild card Oklahoma City 18-18 second wild card ---------------------------------------- Winston-Salem 17-19 Charlotte 17-19 Chicago 16-20 Riverside 15-21 San Diego and Fort Worth are tied for the West Division title and first wild card; settling the division tie will also resolve the wild card tie. There's a four-way tie for the second wild card berth between Norfolk, Oklahoma City, Queens, and Staten Island. Here is what OOTP did: It scheduled Staten Island at Queens. That's it. Both Norfolk and Oklahoma City were left out, even though they should have been involved. There was also no game between San Diego and Fort Worth, even though there should have been. Here is what should have happened: On the first day, Fort Worth plays at San Diego; the winner gets the West Division title and the loser the first wild card. Also on the first day Norfolk plays at Queens and Oklahoma City plays at Staten Island. On the second day, the winner of Oklahoma City-Staten Island plays at the winner of Norfolk-Queens. The winner of this game is the second wild card qualifier.

10-18-2013, 06:32 AM	#33
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,805	Wow. That obviously should not have happened. I'll try to reproduce it and will fix this __________________ Buy Out of the Park Baseball 25 now! Download OOTP Go 25 for iOS Download OOTP Go 25 for Android

10-13-2013, 07:01 PM	#21
Nugget699 Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Sydney Posts: 444	At least you get tiebreakers! If you run a league without Play-Offs and two or more teams are tied for first the team alphabetically last is declared the champion.

10-17-2013, 10:49 PM	#28
bwburke94 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Belchertown, MA, USA Posts: 4,506	At least there's an easy fix for them: First off, one-game playoffs should be a special game type (that counts in regular season standings) instead of being treated as normal regular season games. Second, ties should only be considered ties if: 1) The teams have the same number of wins and the same number of losses, excluding wins/losses from one-game playoffs (NOTE: Special coding needs to be in play for various scenarios with three to five teams, to avoid rematches in X-teams-for-two-spots tiebreakers.) OR 2) The teams both have a .500 record, AND have identical records in one-game playoffs, AND (in wild card tiebreakers only) neither team was tied for a division title prior to one-game playoffs. The second scenario is in there to cover 80-80 vs. 81-81 ties in historical "as played" schedules.

11-23-2013, 07:20 PM	#37
Bowtie All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,316	If anyone here can confirm that this has been fixed in the latest update, please let us know. Thanks! __________________

01-05-2014, 05:44 PM	#38
Honorable_Pawn Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 6,407	Bump __________________ PBA Quickstart for OOTP Background Images Collection All PBA games broadcast live on Steam.