Thread for player identification in team photos

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Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

I think the biggest obstacle is the angle that player #3 has his head. He is tilting and stretching his head/neck so it throws the perspective off a bit. Also, he played 1885 in Cincinnati and migrated west to Denver for 1886. I can see him letting his hair grow out since fashions were different between the East and West just as they are today. My final point is that there are no similarities whatsoever between the ears of your Mountjoy exemplar and player #4.

The angle of the head does make a comparison more difficult. And the ears on Player 4 are hard to see, particularly the left ear.

What strikes me about the hairline is the way it starts on Player 3 at the side of the ear and arcs in, while the Mountjoy exemplar starts at the top of the ear and goes straight up. As best I can tell, that is what it does on Player 4 as well.

Hopefully we can get in touch Mr. Sanford and learn how the original caption was sourced. Maybe that will help.

[cinemaodyssey]

I'd like to enlist all the help I can get to finish off this team photo. We have the players that are in it and all identified but 2-- and those two players are missing players Frank Keffer and Fred Carl. The photo was taken on May 28th, 1889 according to the York Gazette. The Syracuse Evening Herald describes Keffer as being 5'10 and 169 lbs, while the veteran Carl was 5'6 and 158 lbs. Here's what we have:

Top Row, L-R: Jim Gill, Tom Gettinger, Sam Hoverter

Middle Row, L-R: Pat Rollins, John Schweitzer, Joseph Devine (Mgr.), unidentified
Bottom Row, L-R:unidentified, Jake Drauby, John Briel, Jack Stivetts

[cinemaodyssey]

On June 2nd, 1997, The York Dispatch confirmed the players that are in the picture but sadly did not clearly state where they are placed in it.

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While searching for information on Frank Keffer, I came across this photo described as the 1890 Syracuse club. The players are identified below, and most of them can be easily found on Baseball-Reference with the 1890 club.

Back row: Joe Battin, McCabe, Mox McQuery, Bones Ely
Middle row: Mike Dorgan, Dan Casey, Rasty Wright, Mike Morrison, Toby Lyons
Front row: Ramsey, Grant Briggs, Barney McLaughlin

Some of the names are a bit hard to read, but zooming in, that make sense. Two players, however, don't turn up with Syracuse in 1890: McCabe and Ramsey. Toad Ramsey was a prominent pitcher in the 1880s, whose final season was with St. Louis in 1890. I haven't found any indication he even tried out with Syracuse in 1890. And there were a few minor leaguers named McCabe around that time, but I've found no record of them with Syracuse in 1890 either.

Any clues as to who these two players are?

Follow-up: Per the next post, we have Frank McCabe and Joseph Ramsey.

[cinemaodyssey]

The Philadelphia Times on March 4th, 1890, identified Frank McCabe as a semi-pro pitcher.
Joseph Ramsey (named in the February 7th, 1890 Buffalo Courier) is also described as a pitcher on March 8th 1890 edition of the Philadelphia Times. A Buffalo paper stated that Ramsey would be a good acquisition if "he can be induced to keep estranged from John Barleycorn." They were both released on April 11 and Frank Keffer was signed to replace them.

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Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

The Philadelphia Times on March 4th, 1890, identified Frank McCabe as a semi-pro pitcher.
Joseph Ramsey (named in the February 7th, 1890 Buffalo Courier) is also described as a pitcher on March 8th 1890 edition of the Philadelphia Times. A Buffalo paper stated that Ramsey would be a good acquisition if "he can be induced to keep estranged from John Barleycorn." They were both released on April 11 and Frank Keffer was signed to replace them.

Thanks for clearing that up.

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There are two composites identified as the 1888 Davenport club. One of them identifies all of the players under the photos, and shows members of the club while it played in the Central Interstate League. That club disbanded in early August. A second club, organized by the same manager (Will Lucas), later played in the Western Association for about six weeks. I spent a bit of time trying to see if the players in the second composite were from that club, but ultimately concluded they weren't. Then, after comparing the two composites, I decided that the unidentified one was probably just a mock up prepared in advance of the one for which the players were identified. The layout and the framing are identical. Both of these composites are shown below.

I recently came across a collection of cabinet cards offered at auction in the spring of 2006 at Robert Edwards. (https://robertedwardauctions.com/auc...rd-collection/) One of the cards caught my eye - a player from Davenport in 1888 identified as Owen Williams - the same as one of the photos used in the unidentified Davenport composite. So now it seems the unidentified composite may be an earlier version of the Davenport club than the one with players identified. So time to revisit the 1888 Davenport composites.

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Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

I'd like to enlist all the help I can get to finish off this team photo. We have the players that are in it and all identified but 2-- and those two players are missing players Frank Keffer and Fred Carl. The photo was taken on May 28th, 1889 according to the York Gazette. The Syracuse Evening Herald describes Keffer as being 5'10 and 169 lbs, while the veteran Carl was 5'6 and 158 lbs. Here's what we have:

Top Row, L-R: Jim Gill, Tom Gettinger, Sam Hoverter
Middle Row, L-R: Pat Rollins, John Schweitzer, Joseph Devine (Mgr.), unidentified
Bottom Row, L-R:unidentified, Jake Drauby, John Briel, Jack Stivetts

Baseball-Reference lists Jake Drauby as 5' 10", 163 lbs. That is very similar to Frank Keffer. The unidentified player to the left of Drauby looks to be about the same size as Drauby, which suggests that this person is Keffer. Fred Carl would then be the unidentified person at the right end of the middle row.

[cinemaodyssey]

That was my initial thought too. I think we also need to take into consideration the disparity of ages between Keffer and Carl. The player on the bottom row far left appears older.

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Attachment 834863

Originally Posted by prewinter

There are two composites identified as the 1888 Davenport club. One of them identifies all of the players under the photos, and shows members of the club while it played in the Central Interstate League. That club disbanded in early August. A second club, organized by the same manager (Will Lucas), later played in the Western Association for about six weeks. I spent a bit of time trying to see if the players in the second composite were from that club, but ultimately concluded they weren't. Then, after comparing the two composites, I decided that the unidentified one was probably just a mock up prepared in advance of the one for which the players were identified. The layout and the framing are identical. Both of these composites are shown below.

I recently came across a collection of cabinet cards offered at auction in the spring of 2006 at Robert Edwards. (https://robertedwardauctions.com/auc...rd-collection/) One of the cards caught my eye - a player from Davenport in 1888 identified as Owen Williams - the same as one of the photos used in the unidentified Davenport composite. So now it seems the unidentified composite may be an earlier version of the Davenport club than the one with players identified. So time to revisit the 1888 Davenport composites.

I found a reference in the Muscatine Journal from March 26, 1888 that says
"The Journal is indebted to Moore & Hood, of Davenport, for an article of interest to baseball enthusiasts. It is a cabinet photo containing miniature faces of the twelve players composing Davenport's team, and a large head and shoulders of Manager Lucas."

This would presumably be the composite of the players out of uniform and identified. An article in the Davenport Morning Democrat two days later lists the club's roster as the twelve players in the composite.

Players didn't start reporting until April, so no photos in uniform were available in March. This date for the composite also explains why Small, who didn't arrive in Davenport until July, was in the photo. He signed prior to the season, and they could get a photo of him for inclusion in the composite, even though he didn't show up until after he finished school.

As for the second composite, in uniform, assuming it is the same club, there are three time frames for the photo. One is in April, when Small was absent, but a twelfth player was with the club. Pitcher E.E. Crump was signed at the start of April, presumably to fill out the spot Small wasn't around for yet. Crump was gone by late April. Ed Morkin came on board on April 24; he was around until he was released in early July. So from late April through early July, he could be one of the twelve.

The third might be in July. The Quad City Times reported on July 6 that new uniforms were being purchased for the club. Right around that time, wholesale changes were made, with five players being released (Manlove, Morkin, McSorely, Holacher and Jacoby), and a new crop of players signed, including Ed Mayer and Jerry Harrington, as well as the arrival of Small. If any of these three are in the second composite, that would set the date for it in July. On the other hand, if McSorely, released at the start of July, were in the composite, that would point to an April time frame.

Update 12/18/2022: I'm thinking the photos were taken in June, so Meyer would not be in the composite. There is a blurb in the Quad-City Times on June 18, 1888 stating that photos of the Davenport players are available at the Hastings gallery, which was the printer for the composite. I've deleted the comparison with Meyer.

[cinemaodyssey]

I'm about 80% sure this guy is Ira Phillips. I'm a little less certain on that being Mayer but it could be.

[cinemaodyssey]

Here's Jerry Harrington with the 1889 Davenport team. I don't see any player that resembles him in the 1888 composite.

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Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

Here's Jerry Harrington with the 1889 Davenport team. I don't see any player that resembles him in the 1888 composite.

I'm struggling on that as well.

Assuming this is some variation of the first club, which the identification of Owen Williams suggests, implies that there would be seven players that would have to be in the photo:
Charles Briggs, Will Crossley, Willard Mains, John McCabe, Ira Phillips, Charles Reising, and Owen Williams.

I'm going to start with them.

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Originally Posted by prewinter

Assuming this is some variation of the first club, which the identification of Owen Williams suggests, implies that there would be seven players that would have to be in the photo:
Charles Briggs, Will Crossley, Willard Mains, John McCabe, Ira Phillips, Charles Reising, and Owen Williams.

I'm going to start with them.

So here are my first attempts at matches. Al of these players were included in the Moore & Hood composite, without uniforms. As I look at this again, I'm less certain about Reising.

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Originally Posted by prewinter

Assuming this is some variation of the first club, which the identification of Owen Williams suggests, implies that there would be seven players that would have to be in the photo:
Charles Briggs, Will Crossley, Willard Mains, John McCabe, Ira Phillips, Charles Reising, and Owen Williams.

Owen Williams was the starting point, with a cabinet card identified as him that was the same image as used in this composite. Here it is compared with his photo from the previous composite.

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Originally Posted by prewinter

Assuming this is some variation of the first club, which the identification of Owen Wilson suggests, implies that there would be seven players that would have to be in the photo:
Charles Briggs, Will Crossley, Willard Mains, John McCabe, Ira Phillips, Charles Reising, and Owen Williams.

For Ira Phillips, i agree with the assignment above. I've included an image from the 1886 Denver team photo which I think is Phillips.

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Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

The SABR pictorial committee has tried to tackle this team several different times over the years and have not really been able to pinpoint what year it represents. Admittedly it has been awhile since the last go-round with it, specifically the January 2010 newsletter. In that, they proposed that it may be an 1882 semi-pro team.

As to the IDs, I have problems with the ears on Donnelly, McQueary and Hellman so I'm not sure they are correct.

Lastly, I have attached the best exemplar we have of Mappes (from the 1885 Atlanta team photo) for future reference.

Do you know if anyone ever looked at the 1883 Terre Haute club as a possible match? The Evansville Courier and Press on August 29, 1883 (pg 4) published a box score for the club including Buckenberger, Stump and Halbriter, three of the players from the 1884 squad.

[cinemaodyssey]

Originally Posted by prewinter

Do you know if anyone ever looked at the 1883 Terre Haute club as a possible match? The Evansville Courier and Press on August 29, 1883 (pg 4) published a box score for the club including Buckenberger, Stump and Halbriter, three of the players from the 1884 squad.

I don't think we've ever considered 1883 as of yet. Probably worth a look.

[cinemaodyssey]

In our seemingly never-ending quest to decipher the 1890 Portland team photo, this may help narrow it down possibly. Attached is Jack Munday, who pitched for Portland that season for quite awhile. He is pictured with the 1891 La Grande team.

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Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

In our seemingly never-ending quest to decipher the 1890 Portland team photo, this may help narrow it down possibly. Attached is Jack Munday, who pitched for Portland that season for quite awhile. He is pictured with the 1891 La Grande team.

There were three unidentified players in the team photo, and Munday was possibly one of those. Munday is shown below compared to each of these three players. My money is on the third player. The face of the second player seems too round, and the chin of the first player seems too sharp.

The remaining two players are like from Joe Schachern, David Levy or Gus Land. There is an image of David Levy with the previous discussion, and I wasn't able to find a decent match for him, so I think the other two players are more likely.

Updated 9/2/2022: Having determined that Gus Land was 22 at the time of the photo, I now think player 3 (bottom) is Gus Land, player 1 (Top) is Munday, and player 2 is Joe Schachern. A final proposed list of identifications is on pg 8 of this thread.