Automatic transactions for 19th century
 

Is there any way this could be added to the Transaction file. This would be fantastic. To me its almost like the last ingrediant. Sure there may be some minor things but this would help a lot. We cam already have it where players go to their correct teams. Expansion is automatic. Even easier if you just put the UA, PL in the NL. Using the as played schedules help a lot too.
But i dont know who else would be intetrsted in automatic trades for 19th cenyury leagues

They are in Transaction database. I know because I added them last year.

The challenge with implementation is that currently OOTP is ahistorical when it comes to Teams and Leagues so the Transactions don't work and won't unless this structure challenge is fixed in OOTP14. It has already been turned down for OOTP13.

Not sure i understand completely. Are you saying its a problem of players not going to the correct teams? If players can be drafted to their correct teams why cant they
be traded to the correct team? Sorry im just not sure what u ment.

The correct teams do not exist in OOTP out of the box pre-1901. OOTP uses FAKE teams. Therefore transactions of any kind cannot work.

Some of the teams are real. :) Until the engine can handle contraction properly then it has to have the quasi-historical setup of AL and NL pre-1901.

Essentially the out of the box setup has some real teams for 1871 and some that don't exist yet. So you can't match the transactions to the right teams. The Middletown Mansfield, for instance, don't exist if you use create historical league. To my knowledge there is no way to use automatic real transactions unless you create a historical league and choose real transactions.

True but we both know the database can be edited so that the real teams do appear and players are drafted to their team automatically. Only problem is starting from years in which their were odd number of teams. But a quick start could be made for those years. Why have fake teams when you can have the real ones?

Last year i had a spreadsheet for all trades. But other than manually making the transations all the historical team changes went pretty smooth. About the only minor problem was playoffs but i just disabled it and all star game.

Because that is how Markus designed the 1800's (with help from Garlon).

I'd really like to see true 19th century play myownselves. It just is not going to happen with OOTP 13. Instead we get to fart around with the aboriginal unhistorical constipation that is included out-of-the box with OOTP. That is just the way it is.

I dont follow what Markus would have to do to make this work. Isnt it the same as having automatic transaction for modern leagues. I understand Gaarlon made the database so it would work but that was before we figured out we could have automatic expansion and players drafted to original teams teams. Now that we know that it seems to me its only a matter of fine tuning.
Players may have things like disabled playoffs but isnt the point of a historical league to strive for historical accuracy. What would be more accurate than players going to correct teams and playing as played schedules, no all allstar game etc. Of course players could always change it but we would have automatic transactions.
Sorry i just dont understand what Markus would have to do as i am no programmer but it just seems like since we can have 19th century players go to their original team it should be the same for transaction. Folded teams shouldnt matter as a player is gonna go to his new team or sitting out the year. A player isnt gonna be playing for a folded team.

Maybe im just a naive.

Until OOTP has Real Teams and Leagues pre-1901 out-of-the-box the transaction issue is moot.

That is as plain as I can put it.

Because in the 19th century leagues are created and folded, clubs are created and folded. From 1901 onwards neither of those things happen in MLB, and OOTP is set up to handle from 1901 onwards. Which means it can't handle leagues and teams coming into and going out of existence in a historical league.

When that is addressed then a much more accurate 19th century baseball presentation will be possible.

Well yeah i understand that. But nothings gonna get done unless we do it.
Markus probably has too much else to focus on. And lets face it we wouldnt have 19th century play if you and Garlon had not representitive our voice to Markus.
So why not do the same here?
If we can have real transactions along with as played schedules then teams should not run into the not enough players on the roster.

If you switched a modern team nane with a 19th century what is the difference? Abbreviations? But we know Al or Nl will take care of that.

Thats not correct though. It can handle clubs folding. The abbreviations juat have to be edited in the database. Now i can understand players having to adjust league settings but i dont see why transactions cant be done. I can run a league and have the actual teams for each year and players going to their original teams. I dont get the we cant do it cause teams folded argument. Its only because we havent made the adjustments in the database.

No major league club has folded since 1899, the year in which Louisville, Baltimore, Cleveland, and Washington were dropped from the NL. Clubs may have changed locations (and consequently abbreviations) but the franchise themselves are still around.

I think you misunderstood me. What i ment was the game can handle 19th century expansion and teams folding.

Yes, I too think it can handle teams folding as you note BUT Markus says it can't. He must know something we don't.

Leagues folding and having 1 or 3 leagues running instead of 2 is a big bugaboo though.

So is the even number of teams thing.
The interesting fix for that in an 1871 start is that there really was a 14th team. They just never bothered to play a game until 1872. Using real schedules they simply finish 0 - 0.

Well the only problem with odd number teams is the 1st year. We can create quick start leagues for that. As far as other leagues, just pit the UA, PL as a western division in the NL since the AA had odd number of teams in those years.

1871 is always the year I start with. It has an odd number of teams.
I simply add the missing team to the teams.csv.

The things you keep mentioning are work-arounds. Transactions won't work with work-arounds.

The 19th Century needs fixing.

True but even the way it comes with the game is a work-around
Im not following why players cant be traded or released if they can be drafted to their original teams. If a team folds then the player is gonna be released until his new team is scheduled tp play. But the key would be using ad played schedules. Wouldnt work if you use actual schedule because a team may have folded after 9 games and another didnt appear till the 48th game of the season. But with as played schedules its more likely a player will be available.
I guess its hard because i cant see whats in those historical files to have a clearer understanding.
Not trying to be difficult but just not following.

Don't worry you aren't alone.

I can't see why if the transactions are already in the database and if we use the same structure, league, team and team abbreviation for those years real transaction wouldn't be possible for the 19th century. I understand it won't work with the made in game structure as the structure is fictional, but if we recreate the NA, AA, UA, PL, NL and AL as they were why not :confused:

I still am not understanding what the evidence is for this.

In any case, don't forget about the leagues. You start with the NA, then that folds. The NL is then created. The AA comes along in 1882 but then folds after 1891 leaving only one league again. Then the AL comes along in 1901 and it's back to two leagues.

Historical leagues are set up as subleagues and those cannot be added and removed from a league, at least in regards to the automatic way historical leagues work.

(The odd number of teams shouldn't be an issue at all, using either the as played schedules or the original schedules. For the latter, the team that drops out has its schedule taken over by the team replacing it, which is exactly what happened in real life.)

Simple and none of that is problem. Just change all NA, UA, PL team abbreviations to NL. Change AA to AL teams. Do the same for batting, pitching and fielding. U have to disable playoffs or all-star game at times but those didnt exist much back then anyway.
Its easier to leave AA by itself because of the odd number of teams. Just put the UA, PL in a western division of the NL. The NA can just be renamed as the NL or as the NL all together.
Of course UA, PL schedules would have to be combined with NL. But your as played schedules really help imo keeping a league accurate. Its just having automatic transactions would really make it easier on 19th century play as you could concentrate on other things like league settings.

How about this for an oddity......Why don't we ask Markus to give us real 19th Century play. He has always said no before. He said no just a couple of months ago. Maybe if he gets 118,431 e-mails asking to have this adjusted he will say yes?

Could it hurt?

I realize a gazillion plus 7 work-arounds exist like are noted in the immediately previous missive. It would be far far better to have REAL rather than FAKE rather than WORK-AROUNDS. Out-Of-The-Box. Like Cap'n Crunch.

I think we understand its a work- around but what we dont is what would Markus have to code? What is different in the transaction file from when we use a work-around database to have 19th century players going to correct teams. Isnt it the same thing?

The work- around works great. All the teams show up and players go to correct teams. If u are using as played schedules and actual transaction then that also helps from teams running out of players.
If a team didnt have many players cause it folded during the season it would be the same in historical play.

Uh, the point is to have 19th century play without having to do any of that. The fact that you have to do such workarounds is testament to the fact OOTP cannot do it on its own (which is what I said). It also strikes me as a little odd to want real 19th century transactions when you have to do such unrealistic things to the league structures.

If anyone wants an Excel version of the 19th Century transaction database IM me please. It is on my ftp site.

The work around is easy to do and once its done u dont have to worry about the correct teams showing. Its just the same as modern expansion. Whats a pain is doing all the actual transactions for historical play. Its the same as it was for modern leagues before the transaction file helped.

Whats the difference between that work-around and the one that comes with the game. Its edited too. I think it just needs to be updated. Because i believe Garlon did it before we knew expansion would work. At the time we were just trying to get 19th century play into the game.
So if we make an updated database with the changes in abbreviation the game will handle it and next year maybe it could come with the game. But theres not much Markus can do if someone trys to us 5 man rotations in 19th century leagues and expect the same results as real life.

LGO,
Why do you see it as unrealistic? Isnt having the actual teams in each league more realistic than having a 4 team AL and NL in 1871. Not putting that down cause it was the best anyone could do at the time but i think we can do better now.
You dont have to have the UA or PL in a western division, i just thought it might keep rhe history of the league from being screwed up. Other than that you have the same structure as it was in real life. Only difference is choosing stuff like playoffs.

Maybe I'm not understanding your process correctly. How do you handle 1871-81 and 1892-1900 when there was only one league? An empty subleague?

Yep. You gotta make sure things like all star game are off.

An empty sub-league do the works, but as a downside your award history will look bad as the game choose award winners even for empty league. Unless I've miss something to prevent this...

True but they didnt have the Cy Young Award back then. Isnt that the same as awarding a player the Cy Young back then before Cy even played. It would be nice if the hiatory kept the progression of award names. But id rather have historical accuracy than another sub lwague to have awards that didnt exist back then.

I haven't tried the modded DB in 12 but in 11 the answer was yes and no. When teams folded they disappeared and history reflected properly. The problem was teams did not release players, scouts, nor coaches. The only way to find these guys was to go to free agents then show all players then click on the dead team. After that you had to manually release all players the coaches and manager were still stuck. For 12 I decided manually deleting and adding teams was much easier.

Technically it can contract but the players all go into a black hole. They may or may not release when they become free agents. I would assume with the reserve clause in 12 that would mean never. This is really the only part that needs to be fixed that teams are deleted properly when they fold. My assumption is few 19th century players have made this a low priority. The boards seem to reflect a growing number of people interested in playing the era so that part might change.

IIRC, only the team file needs to be altered. The batting, pitching, and fielding files only use the team ID not the league. The team files need to be altered because there to match the structure of the league.

Ideally, 19th century play would be able to fold and create new leagues automatically but that would be a major recode of stuff I that has been there forever.

I think you do have to change the league id in the batting, pitching, fielding. Because if you dont players will have to be drafted and wont go to their original teams.

In 11 I only changed teams and it worked. I am pretty sure that the file only looks at team ID and not league ID. Now in teams.csv you have to have them in NL or AL or the team won't exist. As longer there exists a team with the team ID SL4 for instance the game will put them on the Saint Louis Browns.

For instance in the stock batting file adamsji01 is listed as playing for SL4 AA. If the game looked at the league ID he would be imported as a free agent in the standard historical game. I started a historical game in 1890 with no inaugural draft. Jim Adams shows up with the Saint Louis Browns on their reserve roster despite the fact the batting file has his league ID as AA. The batting file has NA, AA, etc. yet the players get imported to a historical game on the correct team if the team exist.

If I start 1871 without a draft then all the players are on the right team for those exist. All of these players have NA for league ID. The files other than teams seem to be unaltered from the Lahman files. Yet Baltimore, Brooklyn, and all the other teams that did not exist in 1871 are empty. The players who played for teams who did not exist are in the FA pool.

Another example staring 1871 with the quasi-historical setup, the Boston Red Stockings exist in the out of the box setup. Al Spalding is spaldal01. The batting file lists the following, spaldal01 1871 1 BS1 NA. Yet he imports just fine to BS1 when you start the game with no inaugural draft. The game does not look at league ID when it imports players just team ID. The only way Spalding would go to the FA pool in 1871 is if changed Boston's team ID to say BSN, a later ID for Boston.

I tried just changing the league ID for teams but it wouldnt even import. But oh well if the other way works im not gonna mess with it.

Yes, please. I'll even spring for the milk. I would love automatic 19th century.

In 12 or earlier versions? This worked for me in 11. Haven't really tried it in 12 but the files seem to be working with the standard lahman for batting and pitching. Well unless the .obd is different but it shouldn't be.

I found (by accident) that the teams.csv is not in the odb so you can change it easily and changes made there show up in the game.