Latest Info (3/28/20)
 

In response to our delay, I've promised to keep people updated on my progress with FOF9.

I think everyone understands at this point that these updates are informal. I can't provide screen shots because the pretty stuff comes late in the cycle, right before beta. Also, I want to emphasize, again, that OOTP has an experienced PR team and when it's time for them to go, they're going to do this right. I also don't want to tread on the recent and enormously successful OOTP '21 launch (congrats!).

The idea at this point is to get the FOF8 functionality in place, along with some new functionality, within an entirely new framework. One positive about the delay is that pieces that were planned for FOF10 are trickling into FOF9. Not a huge amount, but I think it's becoming significant. I don't have a list right now - that's more a beta thing to put together and some pieces might not make it in the end.

I will let it drop that I added supplemental picks for the amateur draft about a year ago - that seems like stable code now. The latest piece is full support for 2013-19 real-life player files. Originally, there was a plan to have the community work on player files - as it's done in OOTP. Unfortunately, that work was never organized, and got lost in the shuffle. So I've spent most of the last couple of months getting it done myself - both the files and support within the game for their use. I'll add 2020 when the time comes.

How to do this and exactly when is something that I could go on about for pages and pages. I did 2019 (and added it to FOF8) unusually late this past year, and the benefit there is it's much more tuned to real-life 2019 performance. The down-side is people didn't have it until right around the Super Bowl.

One concept I had wanted to add to FOF9 that isn't going to make the cut is player files including hundreds of fringe pro players. Right now, the game takes a core set of players each season that amount to about 1,700-2,000 - basically anyone over replacement level and a good amount of replacement level talent. That's more than enough for full rosters for every team. But most of the additional players needed to fill out the universe are fictional. The idea was to have enough that fictional was never needed. Getting demographic data on fringe players is incredibly time-consuming. So, FOF9 will be about halfway between.

I've developed an algorithm that captures fringe players from recent seasons to half fill-out the remainder of the initial universe. The rest is still fictional and drafts will remain entirely fictional (having "real" drafts as an option is still an FOF10 plan). I don't know how far back we'll eventually go with past player files. Football has too many players and record-keeping is not nearly as robust as it is for baseball. Plus the game changes much more than baseball changes, because play-calling is everything. A successful FOF9 might well mean we can make that a community plan for the future. It's not an option for now.

Anyway, that's where I am right now. I'll know a lot more in upcoming weeks, because with OOTP '21 out and allowing for a bit of rest afterward, we'll all be able to set more of a football development schedule for the spring/summer months. I handle the football part myself, but one thing I can't do is the art stuff. I would share my initial beta screen shots from FOF8 to prove this, but I think you'd all be traumatized.

Stay safe out there. Being rather high risk myself, I've been in quarantine mode for several weeks here already. So far, so good, but we've got a long way to go.

these updates are really encouraging. i love supplemental picks -- adds an additional layer of strategy. thanks jim, and stay safe.

Thanks Jim! It’s great to hear updates on how things are coming along. I’m sure I’m not the only one who appreciates hearing your thoughts on how things are going and what the next steps are!

Stay safe. Things aren’t too bad in my country yet but we’re getting more cases every day.

that's cool -- i wonder if these are the historical NFL supplemental draft picks that have been included in the draft files, or are those compensatory picks after losing FAs? cool either way

My exact question. Supp draft or comp picks?

I wonder if the new FOF will allow for expanded Pre-Season rosters as well as cut downs leading up to the start of the regular season?

I apologize. I meant compensation picks rather than a supplemental draft. Not sure why I keep typing supplemental instead - it's hardly the first time. I don't want to get into an entire Q&A, but the whole staging (starting out with 90, going down to 53 gradually) of the pre-season isn't going to be in FOF9. It will work like FOF8. The new CBA, with a shorter pre-season, will change all of that anyway, so that's an FOF10+ issue, along with practice squads. But it's definitely something I'd like to do eventually. If 2020 has 14 playoff teams rather than 12, that will be in FOF9.

Thank you for the update

I absolutely love the compensatory picks being added to the game. In MP this is going to really add a new element to the game.

Stay Safe!

Great news about the comp picks. It really will add a lot to the free agency part of the game as well as the draft.

It's nice, more than nice, to get an update.

thanks for the clarification, jim. i really love this addition.

Yes, love comp picks. Stop trading away those year-4 guys.

As someone who spent about 8 years working in games, I relate heavily to this.:laugh: It's kind of staggering how bad programmer art can make things seem, and then you drop in professional art and BAM it looks great instantly. :D

I hope you and your loved ones are able to stay safe during these strange times. Thanks for the update :)

brad

As a duly designated representative of the City, County and State of Wudu44 I hereby authorize Jim (or anyone else, for that matter) to use any of the demographic data from my Flotsam Project, which includes most of the players from the NFL, CFL, USFL, WLAF/NFLE, XFL (1st and current incarnation), AAF, UFL, some Arena players and a few big name college players who never went pro, from 1983-2019. Not that I'm encouraging any scope creep that might put more on your plate.

https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/f...r7bMtid06yhphE

Comes in two flavors, player data only or ratings with FOF draft file calculator.

Incredible work!

Do you mind explaining how to import these into FOF8?

1. On the calculator file, "Flotsam Project 4.1", make any edits you want to the player data or rankings on the PlayerData tab. Keep the edits between columns B-BV. Columns BX-DL convert the 1-100 ratings to FOF's specific 375-625 rating system, so don't touch those.

2. When you're ready, find see the FOF Output tab on the bottom. Go there.

3. In A1, you'll see the year, (initially 1983). Replace that year with whatever year you want the draft file for and press enter. It will automatically filter out just those players and calculate FOF file friendly ratings for them.

4. Cut and paste the whole FOF Output tab into a .CSV file (removing row 1 and column A, so it's just the data) and save that.

5. Go to steamapps\common\Front Office Football Eight on your harddrive and open FOF's DraftFile application. Import the CSV file you've created to convert it to the file type usable by the game.

Thank you for the update Jim! All encouraging to hear, and I hope you're keeping safe.

Thanks for the update Jim!

I guess TCY2 is a dead, or maybe 2040 thing? (HA!)

My dream game would be both combined... then watch as my players go pro & have careers beyond my control.

So, in other words, no real life Browns players will be used.

Wow. Nice work. You are unofficially in charge of the FOF Wayback Project. I know how much effort this takes, and I've been looking for someone with interest in this for a long time.

Tools like this reflect on these communities and the members. Some seriously amazing people here. I second Jim's unofficial designation but add the title, Wudu44 - OOTP Mayor of FOF Wayback!

Awesome. Really appreciate it!

Thanks Jim, sounds great.

I wouldn't have expected a lot of the fringe players to be included and 99% of people won't know who most of them are anyway. Looking forward to your next update. Stay safe.

Excited to see this latest. May you and your family Jim be safe during this iso period.

One interesting note here. This is something I would have imagined to be adjustable (sates, number of players etc..) but from the way Jim answered this question, I really wonder now. Perhaps FOF isn't going to be the customizable game we had hoped...and perhaps this merger is mostly about the UI. (which we knew it was...but I think OOTP style customization also entered peoples' minds)

Or perhaps FOF9 and say FOF10 include Jim's current planned changes displayed in the OOTP UI all the while the code is maturing to "become" what everyone is hoping for. It may be a few seasons before the level of customization comes close to being as robust as some envision.

Of course, only Jim knows for sure but I think you've outlined the most plausible developments.

Once before he had also mentioned a few custom sized leagues IIRC.

Thanks, I'll try not to let it go to my head. The project is ongoing, I'm working on trying to balance the talent at the moment. My goal is to finish 1983-2020 by the NFL season, whenever that is. Once those seasons are solid, I'll see if I can reach back further, maybe to the WFL.

What are the chances it has an Indoor football league option ? That would be freaking AMAZING

I would not mind seeing this, but I would think the chances are probably 0% that there would be an option for indoor football.

Or even back to 1960, for some of us!

Indoor football you ask? I'm writing one of those...

https://gmgames.org/indoor-football-manager-ifm/

So the critical struggle in adding players is finding a good, reliable source of data that includes their physical attributes like height & weight but also provides things like hometown, birthday and what year they left school and would be draft eligible. Most sources, even the official league ones, might give some of that on current players but guys who played 10-20 years ago are lucky to get a statistical mention in the record books only if they did something phenomenal.

In other words, if you can provide me with a solid source of IFL player data I can harvest from I'd put it on the list of things to add.

Very interesting..

But, I have to ask... why?

This is taking an already very niche market (football sim games) and slicing it WAY down (since, let's face it, NFL is much, more popular than any indoor football league)

I'm not meaning this to be rude, more so out of curiosity, but... is anyone actually... asking for an indoor football league game? I imagine it's a passion/side project for you as opposed to something you're looking to make a whole lot of money off of? Unless there is some huge, untapped indoor sim football market I'm unaware of.

Why make another NFL game when you could make something more unique? Indoor football is not the NFL. Indoor football is it's own brand of the game and it deserves to be part of general manager style world of games.

Having said that, let's not take away from the real news here (FOF9).

Right on. Good luck with it.

This is my only pet peeve in sports as far as the entertainment part goes. I hate how too many teams make the playoffs in sports. Making the playoffs is supposed to be a reward for being a very good team in the regular season. You play 16 regular season games and 1 playoff loss and your season is over. So being very good in the regular season should be rewarded.

Making the playoffs is supposed to be, in theory, a celebration of triumph. When you put half the league into the playoffs how much of a triumph is it?

I realize it's only 2 extra teams making the playoffs. But with 12 teams making the playoffs,

12 in
20 out.

14 in
18 out.


Even though it's only 2 more teams making the playoffs, it looks a lot worse to me. You're almost putting half the teams in the playoffs. Putting almost half the teams into the playoffs destroys the reward for making it into them.

I'm not sure if this could happen because I don't know the program algorithm but if it's not a hassle and if the NFL changes the playoff field size can we have the option in the game settings to change the playoff field size to 12?

The beauty of games like FOF and OOTP is once they become so good you can ignore real life leagues and never miss them.

Honestly I love baseball but this year they actually blacked out spring training games. Seriously? ST games? I wish there was no virus, or course, but if they end up not playing this year I won't miss it. I'l fire up OOTP and my baseball need will be covered.

If they keep screwing with the NFL I could see FOF doing the same.

The thing about the NFL increasing the playoff field size is, don't these people have enough money? Doesn't the NFL make enough money?

The NFL made $8.1 billion dollars last year. Do they really need to make more money by increasing the playoff field size?

If it's not broke don't fix it. Don't destroy the prestige of making the playoffs. They make enough money.

Totally agree. Add to that the abuse the bodies of players take over the course of a season and you want to add more? Watered down playoffs ruin the point of the regular season. I could see teams that can't win the division but have a WC locked sitting starters for the last 2 games of the regular season. Got to keep that wear and tear off the body with the new longer season and extended playoffs. ;)

Seriously I can see a time where FOF will fill my needs for football as OOTP can for baseball. I know I'm nothing to them and they'll never miss me but... I won't miss them either. :)

I will still have the Premiere League in the UK for my sports fix. You know a league where there are no playoffs and almost every game matters. Oh, yeah there are also no commercials while the game is playing :)

How long until a possible release? I would be very interested in playing!

I guess it's a decision centered around passion. And if it's something they truly love it's hard to argue with that.

This very boring time would be elevated by FOF ;)

As we enter May, there's very little to report. Soon, we'll need to make a call as to whether we'll aim at a 2020 release. I'll do my best to keep everyone informed. I'm still the only one working on development.

Lately, I've been focused on the player pages. Nothing to show (again, what makes them look non-horrible comes later), but functionally, the game is getting closer to complete.

I certainly hope it's this year. Concerned that OOTP has only you working on it. Where is the graphical interface programmer committment from OOTP?

If it is functionally complete, seems like there should be a schedule for remaining tasks by now.

Yeah it is a concern... makes me wonder what other projects can take precedence over this.

Or why they even merged in the first place. Jim would have had the next version of FOF out by now, albeit with the same interface most likely, had they not merged.

I can't speak for OOTP Developments...but the APPEARANCE is they are much more focused with PT and becoming a simulation engine as opposed to a GM game. Some are arguing the GM game part of OOTP has also suffered and not received a lot of attention the past few years. I think it's fair to say (and I know it's been eluded to by developers) the company has gone in a bit of a different and unexpected direction.

Interesting and thanks Jim. Question for the patient and inpatient community to continue looking for the light at the end of the tunnel.

Would there be consideration for another upgrade to FOF8 should the decision be to prepare and market FOF9 for next season?

Have the changes you have incorporated remained compatible with the current FOF format/GUI or are they structurally incompatible? (My assumption is yes!)

It could be an opportunity to allow the community to stress the changes and provide feedback while we wait for an OOTP GUI.

That implies I would rather FOF9 with the same ol' interface. I don't. I want player facegen already and I want it to be easy to navigate. I just dont get the wait.

My primary work on FOF9 has been a complete rewrite of existing function to fit a new set of structures and a new UI framework. In places, I have taken the opportunity to also redo the existing function. For example, the game can support different league sizes and formats as long as there is a league template in place (these are complex enough that exposure to the community to add their own and support reading those in would not be feasible for FOF9 - nor would they even begin to work with FOF8). I'm even thinking about re-doing (again) the staff model beginning in a week or so. It's still entirely an NFL-based game. No college rosters or rules or 110-yard CFL fields or Australian football - that's not going to be configurable. 11 players and four downs (sorry, Colorado) and 100 yards are sacrosanct. If we don't do FOF9 this year, I'm not sure what will happen. Anything and everything is on the table.