How the various products compare..
 

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That's as good and comprehensive summary as I have seen, thanks for that!

I'd like to add "American Football Classics" which is a mobile-only game (only available fo Apple iOS devices) and also brand-new. It's directed at the casual, not the hardcore fans.

American Football Classics
Description - text based simulation
Pro - many seasons/teams for pro for free, low-cost
Con - no 3D video gameplay graphics, no recruiting (college)/GM (pro) modes, no franchise or season mode, limited strategic options, doesn't have a big forum community

Good high level summary. Having played all these games myself not much to disagree apart from Madden 20 where you say "immersive features (MUT)". Dont know what you mean with immersive but franchise mode is defo not that immersive and only thing immersive about MUT is your wallet ;) as its a total money grab.

I'm sure you meant no offense but I take issue with labeling our games a "separate money grab for pro and college" - would you consider Madden and NCAA separate money grabs?

The pro and college football games are very different and give you totally different experiences. I know some people feel that a pro and college game should be combined into one but I don't think it's fair to expect any company to deliver two games for the price of one nor should we ask customers to pay for two games when they might not have any interest in the pro or college side of the game.

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I know the hours first hand that I put into developing the pro and college basketball games I make and I can tell you that I create two games - not one game - just as our football developers create two different games. Just because the games both simulate football doesn't mean they're the same - in fact they're very different when you consider the logic for player movement, game play style, scheduling, game rules, roster rules...

You brought up Second and Ten not charging for them separate. Well it looks like on their site the combined game costs $50 and that excludes certain college seasons which you can purchase extra at $10 (that's not a cash grab?) So that means someone with zero interest in pro football is forced to pay $50 for a college football game. At our site someone with no interest in pro football only pays $35 (or less - there is a pre-order discount plus other discounts during the year) for a college football game. How is it better for the customer you are claiming to stand up for when they have to pay for something they don't want? I don't have any issue with them forcing a bundle on someone but that's what they're doing - they're not making one game and giving away a second for free.

You're obviously welcomed to your opinion but do you go to McDonalds and expect to get a Big Mac and a Quarter Pounder because they both use a hamburger patty and a bun? Do you consider Perfect Team a cash grab? It simulates baseball games just like OOTP does. Do you think OOTP should have developed that and given it away for free?

That sort of thinking irritates me - companies like ours are not EA Sports. The OOTP team is far larger than mine and they would dwarf in comparison to EA or 2K and yet both of our companies consistently provide games that cost less and for many people are more fun to play. In some cases these games are built by one or two people and you don't think they should be rewarded for the time they spend developing different games because they're the same basic sport on the field even though almost everything off the field is different?

Statistical accuracy is going to be an opinion - I feel that our football games do an excellent job of generating realistic and accurate stats and that the stats they generate are responsive to the choices made in game play and game planning. And because we operate to make sure that our customers have a satisfying and rewarding experience we offer 100% free demos. We want prospective customers to try the game first and see for themselves how they like it and how much fun they have with it. Then we ask them to fairly reward our developers who put so many hours into building the game.

We're not in the business of "cash grabs" - if we were then we certainly wouldn't offer people the chance to try the games in full without putting out any money or putting a credit card in for a free trial in the hopes they forget later on or something and get charged. We're in the business of providing great sports gaming experiences and building a long term relationship with people who like to play those games. We completely leave it up to the customer to determine what they feel value is weather it is buying every game sight unseen for full price at release or waiting for Black Friday or Wolverine Day to pick up the one game they want at a deep discount.

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I think your previous posts warrant a defensive response - I don't mind if people say they just don't like how our game looks or plays or anything else but to me a "money grab" means that a company is out to rip off customers. There's no positive connotation to the phrase. I gave you an opportunity to clarify that by saying I assumed you meant no offense and you affirmed that you meant "money grab" so I do take offense to that because I don't believe my company, OOTP or anyone else in our small niche business has ever ripped off their customers.

And no, we don't have "studies" that we provide that proves the game's statistical accuracy or that it is superior to X (who does?) but I can tell you nothing is fudged in the games. Anyone can and will claim their game is the best thing since sliced bread. Our games provide realistic results that are impacted based on inputs from you and the AI. The football games are built on a physics based engine and you can see the play unfold in front of you in a 2D environment. If the running back breaks free the players move down the field in a realistic manner and the game calculates if the running back gets caught or not. It doesn't say he's only supposed to get a 15 yard run so a safety miraculously comes out of nowhere for a tackle.

Like I said, we offer a 100% free demo. If you want to see how realistic it is then try it. You can even create your own plays and playbooks so you can test any theories you want. You can see what results it produces and determine how that matches up with what you consider to be accurate or with what others games are able to achieve. If you don't have any interest in a game unless it can provide you "evidence or statistical analysis" that's fine too - it doesn't matter to me. I'm only here to defend my company against the notion that anything we do is for a "money grab"

Mac OS please!

When you have time.

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I do not believe a college game is a money grab and think it’s an unfair statement. The game and business side of things are so much different between college and pro.

I will say, the way processing power in computers have come, I would much rather see a college game come as paid DLC for the pro game even it is the same cost. That would be one of the only times I would fully support DLC for text sport games...but we just might not be there quite yet.

College and pro vastly different games. To say or associate them as a "money grab" is just ridiculous. They are separate and distinct games simulating different brands of football. You want the game coding to be very similar or overlap, after all it is a football simulation. Concepts are same coding has to reflect this.

lol

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I will chime in here, just to clarify things about the statistics in the football games. We do actually compare and tweak results to get them in line with realworld stats. Ive routinely (when weve made major changes to the onfield logic) simulated and logged results of more than a million snaps and done analysis. We have some dedicated testers who help us by alerting when some stats (sacks, completion% or whatnot) need tweaking, both before, during and after beta.

Here is the catch though - its what gary alludes to above - the DDS football games run a physics engine, this means we cannot dictate outcomes of plays, because players are where they are and can do what they can do. So, we cannot in any way fake results to get perfect matching with real world stats. It also means the engine is somewhat frail and because of ripple effects tweaks are required after most updates.

If you check the forum, you will see that we regularly patch when something is out of line (latest example is completion%).

Honestly, I think you need to stop here.

a) Every company tries to maximize their profit. That's the reason they exist and that's the reason you and I have a job. Having said that, the difference between a college football and a pro football game is not just typing in different team names and schedules. Salary cap vs no salary cap, draft/free agency/trades vs recruiting, pro rules vs college rules, just to give you a few examples.

b) Not sure what you expect from a game. Every game has his own engine and the beauty of a game is to figure out how to beat the guys on the other side. If you need results that match reality, go to pro-football-reference.com.

c) Every developer does QA tests. Period.

I think that's all that needs to be said.

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After Gary's responses here, I think I'm going to jump in and buy a version of his college football game (Have to wait until I get back to the USA, tho).

As a MSU Spartan, my only concern is the with the name of the company. My goal for the foreseeable future will be to stomp those wolvies on their own game :D