I hadn't read the other thread before now, because I've seen this topic debated before in many previous threads - at least one of which I participated in myself. So I assumed it was just like this one.
To be honest, I didn't see that thread take a negative turn until PSU responded in post #29. It probably wasn't the fact that he called the
idea dumb that lit the fuse, but the fact that he started slamming the
people who were supporting it. Calling people "nerds" isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in the context he was using the term, I can understand how it might have rubbed people the wrong way.
I'm not saying people should be calling other people names or hurling insults at one another, no matter which side of the fence they're on. So you're right. There were definitely some "pro-women" posts that crosses the line, too.
Let me clarify that my beef is not with you, Sweed. You have been respectful with your criticism of the idea and, as you pointed out, you have offered possible solutions and compromises. And fwiw, I never construed your stance on this subject as being sexist. I can see where some people might perceive opposition to women's leagues as sexist, but I don't feel that this is truly anyone's attitude in this forum.
The fact is, you and I are probably close to being on the same page. I agree 100% that having the game generate female players should be WAY down on the priority list and that bringing women into the OOTP universe would be better left to modders.
However, I do hope that someday, when hundreds of other features I consider more important have been added (and I literally have a list of a few hundred that are a higher priority than women players) I would support Markus allowing this option. Alternatively, I'd be okay with adding it sooner IF it could be done without wasting time and resources... like more than about 5-10 minutes. Would I ever personally use female players in a league?
Maybe once, just for the novelty of it (and admittedly, for the principle of it, since I know some people are so fervently against it and I'm just a stinker like that!
) But I guarantee you it wouldn't hold my interest for more than about 2 minutes.
So, having established that I am personally not interested in women's leagues, why does all of this matter to me so much? Well, for one thing, it's obviously something that a fair number of people DO want. The poll numbers are somewhat even (although I would strongly suspect that the "No" votes would be significantly lower if "No Opinion" or "I don't care either way" were options) but the vast majority of posts are supportive of it at least being an
option (if, of course, it doesn't distract Markus from other things, etc. etc.)
The other reason I'm supporting this is that I have a problem with a few people coming in and arbitrarily deciding for everyone else what should or shouldn't be considered for this game. Most of my OOTP wishlist includes features and functions that seem to be popular. But others may seem odd or even unnecessary. And while I absolutely welcome people's constructive criticism and offering their opinion that my idea is something they're not personally interested in, I sure don't want someone calling me "stupid" or a "nerd" (in a non-endearing way) just for suggesting something they don't like or understand.
So when I see people like Wolf and PSU ragging on the guys in this thread who are merely making suggestions, I find it extremely offensive.
So far, I have generally avoided naming specific people. Honestly, my statements may apply to more than just Wolf and PSU, so I purposely try to direct it toward "whomever it may concern". I'm of the opinion that if I post something that doesn't apply to you, you shouldn't take offense to it. But I can see how that might sound like I'm lumping everyone together. So again, I want to clarify that my comments were not meant to be directed at you.
As for Wolf and PSU, I don't know either of these gentlemen personally. What I do know is that they have both posted plenty of relevant, intelligent, and insightful comments over the years. I happen to agree with both of them on some key issues. And perhaps most importantly, I believe they both ultimately want what's best for OOTP.
Having said this, I'm not a fan of their abrasive style. I can accept that they may not always have any real malice in their hearts when they "attack" other community members. Regardless, they both tend to convey a certain degree of arrogance in the way they address people in this forum, and that doesn't sit well with me. Granted, I'm sure they think
I'm the one being arrogant - at least I'm pretty sure Wolf does, as he's implied as much before - for trying to act as "etiquette police" in this forum. But the fact is, I would even call someone out who was agreeing with me if they were needlessly berating another community member.
This isn't just about people's conduct on the OOTP boards. I believe in being polite to others no matter where you are. And if I see someone being pushed around, I do what I reasonably can to defend them. I simply don't condone the use of bullying tactics to inflict your will on others.
Wolf and PSU seem to have a different socio-political view than I do, and that's fine. For the umpteenth time, we don't have to agree on everything. But there's nothing wrong with having respectful, constructive dialogue.
And btw, if this debate seems to be one-sided as of late, it might have something to do with the fact that Wolf has apparently decided that I said something "ridiculous", in his opinion, and is therefore no longer engaging me in conversation. Which is fine. I'm beyond ready to let this topic die. Hopefully, the testosterone and macho pride in the room can dissipate enough to let this happen.
