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Amazin69 · 03-29-2016, 04:47 AM

So…what are we going to do about the 1962 Syracuse Chiefs? I understand that it would be difficult to set up a joint-operated farm team for the Mets and the Senators, but hopefully not impossible. Perhaps they could each have a "Syracuse" farm to send people to and recall them from, but the International League would have a "Syracuse" whose manager could draw on both player pools to play the games? As I say, difficult; I don't know the coding issues that would be involved in this. (And for the co-op teams used by the 1969 and 1977 expansion teams, as well.)

BUT…it's clearly better than the current system, where neither the Mets nor the Senators have control over the "Syracuse" players who are actually their property. The Mets went to all that trouble to get Grover Powell to drop out of the University of Pennsylvania and sign with them in February (Powell had been kicked off of Penn's baseball team for discipline issues, but it was still an Ivy League school he was walking away from), so when I play as Mets GM I should be able to control him, rather than have him be out of reach on an "independent" Syracuse. Ditto for Larry Bearnarth, as well as Tom Belcher and other players who never reached the majors. Indeed, Belcher attended Mets camp; he should probably be on the 40-man roster.

Perhaps that's the solution? Leave Syracuse as "independent", but put the players on the 40-man roster of the respective parent clubs? Maybe give the Mets/Washington GMs (either human or AI) the option to assign players to Syracuse, but only if they're on the 40-man? Just make sure that the "Syracuse" AI can't release or trade any players on its own?

In any event, here's how the Syracuse roster should be allocated:

Mets

Tommy Addington (should be with Salisbury of the Western Carolinas League, the Mets Class D team he spent most of the year with, but that league isn't in the game)

Paul Alspach (should be on Auburn or Quincy, as he spent most of the year there, and was presumably promoted to Syracuse later)

Ray Apple (the original Met, signed back in 1960; spent some time with the Dodgers' farm in Greenville, but that was probably just a loan)

Larry Bearnarth
Tom Belcher
Evans Killeen (should probably be with Quincy; spent much of the year there)

Grover Powell (should be on Auburn; he started the year there)
William Whalen (should be on Auburn; he spent most of the year there)

Senators

Dutch Dotterer
Rudy Hernandez
Hector Maestri

Carl Mathias (an interesting case; he was a '61 expansion Senator, but in the Mets chain in '63-'64. Mlbtradetracker says the Mets acquired him for cash on 12/20/62, so that makes him a Senator for '62)

Tom McAvoy

Others

Don Gross (should probably be a legitimate free agent; the Pirates had outrighted him to Salt Lake in 1960 and he was just hanging on with minor league teams, trying to pitch through his elbow problems. Even though he pitched for Columbus in 1961 and 1963, he wasn't Pirates property any more, nor did he sign with the Mets or Senators for his brief stint in 1962, just with Syracuse.)

Bill Lajoie (per this obituary, the future Tigers GM spent almost all of 1962 as property of Athletics, even though he played for Toronto [Braves affiliate] until August, when Syracuse acquired him. They then sent him back to the A's at season end, where he was assigned to Portland, but found himself with the Cincinnati PCL team [San Diego] by the start of 1963. Should probably be in the Kansas City chain, Toronto assignment aside.)

Henry Mitchell (should be in the Pirates system, either at Columbus [where he finished '61] or Asheville; he played for both, then Syracuse and finished the year at Dallas-Fort Worth, which was a co-op team of the Phillies and Angels. As he spent 1963 with the Angels' AAA team in Nashville, it appears that Syracuse was just a transitory stop [maybe even a loaner] between the Pirates and Angels chains, regardless of whose property he might have been for those few weeks.)

Francisco Obregon (in the middle of a 12-year stint in the Cincinnati chain, and he goes right back there next year. Probably on loan, the way he'd been for 55 games he spent with Indianapolis [Phils apphiliate] in 1960)

Ernie Oravetz (apparently a free agent, signed independently with Syracuse; he'd been with the Chiefs when they were a Twins farm in '61 and then had been traded to Spokane. In 1962 he returned briefly to Syracuse and then rejoined the Twins system, moving down to Charlotte for the rest of '62 and '63)

Charlie Rabe (should be with Macon, in the Reds system; he played there in 1961 and 1963 as well. The Syracuse visit seems like a loan, nothing more.)

Frank Verdi (should be considered unaffiliated, as he had been the player-manager for the finish of the 1961 season, when Syracuse was a Twins affiliate, and so his contract was probably with Syracuse rather than either MLB team. When he was fired with the team at 33-53, he went to the Yankees chain, playing out the season at Amarillo, before starting his long Yankees managerial career at Greensboro in 1963.)

So that's the "who-goes-where" aspect of the Mets-Senators co-op; a similar parsing out should be done for the DFW Rangers, who were also co-op, as noted. No need to deprive the Phillies of Gary Kroll and the Angels of Bob Lee (for example) just because they were assigned to a team under joint control.

There are also numerous errors with the 1962 ML rosters (as of the March 3 start date), which I'll cover in a separate post (or posts). Unless there's someplace else I should put that data.

Thanks.

03-29-2016, 04:47 AM	#165
Amazin69 Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Palmetto Pride! Posts: 4,218 Infractions: 0/4 (4)	1962 Roster Issue So…what are we going to do about the 1962 Syracuse Chiefs? I understand that it would be difficult to set up a joint-operated farm team for the Mets and the Senators, but hopefully not impossible. Perhaps they could each have a "Syracuse" farm to send people to and recall them from, but the International League would have a "Syracuse" whose manager could draw on both player pools to play the games? As I say, difficult; I don't know the coding issues that would be involved in this. (And for the co-op teams used by the 1969 and 1977 expansion teams, as well.) BUT…it's clearly better than the current system, where neither the Mets nor the Senators have control over the "Syracuse" players who are actually their property. The Mets went to all that trouble to get Grover Powell to drop out of the University of Pennsylvania and sign with them in February (Powell had been kicked off of Penn's baseball team for discipline issues, but it was still an Ivy League school he was walking away from), so when I play as Mets GM I should be able to control him, rather than have him be out of reach on an "independent" Syracuse. Ditto for Larry Bearnarth, as well as Tom Belcher and other players who never reached the majors. Indeed, Belcher attended Mets camp; he should probably be on the 40-man roster. Perhaps that's the solution? Leave Syracuse as "independent", but put the players on the 40-man roster of the respective parent clubs? Maybe give the Mets/Washington GMs (either human or AI) the option to assign players to Syracuse, but only if they're on the 40-man? Just make sure that the "Syracuse" AI can't release or trade any players on its own? In any event, here's how the Syracuse roster should be allocated: Mets Tommy Addington (should be with Salisbury of the Western Carolinas League, the Mets Class D team he spent most of the year with, but that league isn't in the game) Paul Alspach (should be on Auburn or Quincy, as he spent most of the year there, and was presumably promoted to Syracuse later) Ray Apple (the original Met, signed back in 1960; spent some time with the Dodgers' farm in Greenville, but that was probably just a loan) Larry Bearnarth Tom Belcher Evans Killeen (should probably be with Quincy; spent much of the year there) Grover Powell (should be on Auburn; he started the year there) William Whalen (should be on Auburn; he spent most of the year there) Senators Dutch Dotterer Rudy Hernandez Hector Maestri Carl Mathias (an interesting case; he was a '61 expansion Senator, but in the Mets chain in '63-'64. Mlbtradetracker says the Mets acquired him for cash on 12/20/62, so that makes him a Senator for '62) Tom McAvoy Others Don Gross (should probably be a legitimate free agent; the Pirates had outrighted him to Salt Lake in 1960 and he was just hanging on with minor league teams, trying to pitch through his elbow problems. Even though he pitched for Columbus in 1961 and 1963, he wasn't Pirates property any more, nor did he sign with the Mets or Senators for his brief stint in 1962, just with Syracuse.) Bill Lajoie (per this obituary, the future Tigers GM spent almost all of 1962 as property of Athletics, even though he played for Toronto [Braves affiliate] until August, when Syracuse acquired him. They then sent him back to the A's at season end, where he was assigned to Portland, but found himself with the Cincinnati PCL team [San Diego] by the start of 1963. Should probably be in the Kansas City chain, Toronto assignment aside.) Henry Mitchell (should be in the Pirates system, either at Columbus [where he finished '61] or Asheville; he played for both, then Syracuse and finished the year at Dallas-Fort Worth, which was a co-op team of the Phillies and Angels. As he spent 1963 with the Angels' AAA team in Nashville, it appears that Syracuse was just a transitory stop [maybe even a loaner] between the Pirates and Angels chains, regardless of whose property he might have been for those few weeks.) Francisco Obregon (in the middle of a 12-year stint in the Cincinnati chain, and he goes right back there next year. Probably on loan, the way he'd been for 55 games he spent with Indianapolis [Phils apphiliate] in 1960) Ernie Oravetz (apparently a free agent, signed independently with Syracuse; he'd been with the Chiefs when they were a Twins farm in '61 and then had been traded to Spokane. In 1962 he returned briefly to Syracuse and then rejoined the Twins system, moving down to Charlotte for the rest of '62 and '63) Charlie Rabe (should be with Macon, in the Reds system; he played there in 1961 and 1963 as well. The Syracuse visit seems like a loan, nothing more.) Frank Verdi (should be considered unaffiliated, as he had been the player-manager for the finish of the 1961 season, when Syracuse was a Twins affiliate, and so his contract was probably with Syracuse rather than either MLB team. When he was fired with the team at 33-53, he went to the Yankees chain, playing out the season at Amarillo, before starting his long Yankees managerial career at Greensboro in 1963.) So that's the "who-goes-where" aspect of the Mets-Senators co-op; a similar parsing out should be done for the DFW Rangers, who were also co-op, as noted. No need to deprive the Phillies of Gary Kroll and the Angels of Bob Lee (for example) just because they were assigned to a team under joint control. There are also numerous errors with the 1962 ML rosters (as of the March 3 start date), which I'll cover in a separate post (or posts). Unless there's someplace else I should put that data. Thanks.