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NoOne · 03-31-2017, 07:15 PM

the concept behind this is looking at what is different at each spot in the lineup.

who sees more RBI-opportunities (notice i say opportunities, not resulting rbi)

who gets more ab? (obvious but, important)

who's more likely te be driven in? (not the same spots as the rbi-opp spots)..

etc etc... what do yo uwant out of that slot in the order? it should be common sense how you should build it up.

does power help anywhere in the order? Yes... it does... but it helps more at certain sports in the lineup.. .specifically 3-4-5 will have the most opportunities.

does that mean you shouldn't put someone fast there? no... but it depends. if you have enough power, sometimes putting that power guy with speed #1/2 in lineup because no one else can fill the role. the guys in 3-4 or 5 may produce less runs, but the benefit he adds to teh #2 spot covers than and then some (net positive = do it, regardless of platitudes and theories stated by anyone in this thread, including this post).

what combination results in the most runs scored... that is all that matters... use the basic concepts you already know and adjust to context. sometimes it will make sense to do something odd-looking, but most of the time not so much.

#1 fewest rbi-opps / most AB -- so, obp, speed, these types of intangibles become a bit more important relative to other factors... since return on power is minimized here.

#2 - supposedly needs versatility, and that makes sense... if i have 2 obp guys and one has ~average power, i like that in the 2-hole. however, ability easy trumps intangibles... e.g. you choose between a .280 guy and a perrenial .300+ guy who doesnt bunt as welll and all other features the same.. if you don't go with the guy taht's ~7% better at gettgin on base for a sac bunt opp that occurs a handful of times a year you are nuts. put things in proper perspective based on how freqently it occurs and always related back to ability to score runs.. .nothign else. (pretty sure the 7% more hits per ~500+ ab is > a few bunt attempts) Definitely want Doubles power minimum in the #2... any intangibles also help more so than other slots later in the order... but slugging / hitting still hugely more important.

Putting a monster #2 isn't a good idea, if that's your best ops or best player etc... but some situations may warrant it, despite that fact. even # 3 gets less opportunities to rake than 4-5, so it's already starting to negatively effect that portion of the equation for your "best" ops or power guy. (ops isn't proportional, btw -- some dummy literally just added to other stats together without even thinking about it... i use ops too, don't get me wrong, but i never think it's accurate description on its own and at best is just mildly correlated with how you are using it.)

i put my best pure bomber #4, but a more professional hitter with power i prefer #3... tehy can take a walk and turn the lineup over to the #4 guy in the 1st inning more often with people on base. (do you load up 1st inning for the 3rd or 4th guy? 4th guy probably more volatile but bigger returns in first innnign scoring... tuned for #3 guy in first inning you may get more consistent runs but not as big of peaks and valleys in comparison. i prefer to load up for the #4 guy)

After the first inning you have virtually no control of order of batters... it's random (this is exclusive from the comment saying some spots get more rbi opps - different concept and both true). so, don't worry about order of the batters after the first inning... meaning after 1-4ish you simple want the better offensive players in descending order - because you have no idea if they are batting 1.2 or 3+ in the inning, ever.

3-4-5
#3 should be the 'best' hitter, they say... again makes sense relative to what hte player will likely see. not as many rbi-opps as #4.. probably a bit less than #5 -- despite those spots getting less plate appearances. i want this guy to have average+ eye, too... a little speed is nice but far down the list for me in most cases.

4-5 i want bombers... consistently .500+ slugging type #'s. i'm less concerned about BB and intangibles... although these 3-4-5 guys can score alot of runs, too.

6-7 - whatver you can afford... you can't always have 5 or 6, 25-35+HR guys. maybe he's got a high average and not a tone of HR... or the yhave a lot of hr and crappy BA/OBP etc.. these guys likely have flaws... raking RBI is still > running skills at #6/7.

8-9 - get into your worst offensive players for sure by this point. i take anything i can get that's better than average here... if they are speedy, i put them in front of a power guy in the bottom 3. generally i just order purly on ability to Rake after 3-4-5, but speed mixed in the last 3 is a wash most likely.

So, alot of that doesn't apply outside of the modern era... if your league is higher BA and lower power #'s, you should probably adjust what you read.

you can use what "they" say about modern league andn guesstimate the new weights you should put in power / eye / BA etc etc... what won't change is likely RBI-opportunites per slot in order and # of AB related to slot.. .if that needs to be said.

the break-even at when you should go with power or intangibles will change (oversimplified)

03-31-2017, 07:15 PM	#23
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	the concept behind this is looking at what is different at each spot in the lineup. who sees more RBI-opportunities (notice i say opportunities, not resulting rbi) who gets more ab? (obvious but, important) who's more likely te be driven in? (not the same spots as the rbi-opp spots).. etc etc... what do yo uwant out of that slot in the order? it should be common sense how you should build it up. does power help anywhere in the order? Yes... it does... but it helps more at certain sports in the lineup.. .specifically 3-4-5 will have the most opportunities. does that mean you shouldn't put someone fast there? no... but it depends. if you have enough power, sometimes putting that power guy with speed #1/2 in lineup because no one else can fill the role. the guys in 3-4 or 5 may produce less runs, but the benefit he adds to teh #2 spot covers than and then some (net positive = do it, regardless of platitudes and theories stated by anyone in this thread, including this post). what combination results in the most runs scored... that is all that matters... use the basic concepts you already know and adjust to context. sometimes it will make sense to do something odd-looking, but most of the time not so much. #1 fewest rbi-opps / most AB -- so, obp, speed, these types of intangibles become a bit more important relative to other factors... since return on power is minimized here. #2 - supposedly needs versatility, and that makes sense... if i have 2 obp guys and one has ~average power, i like that in the 2-hole. however, ability easy trumps intangibles... e.g. you choose between a .280 guy and a perrenial .300+ guy who doesnt bunt as welll and all other features the same.. if you don't go with the guy taht's ~7% better at gettgin on base for a sac bunt opp that occurs a handful of times a year you are nuts. put things in proper perspective based on how freqently it occurs and always related back to ability to score runs.. .nothign else. (pretty sure the 7% more hits per ~500+ ab is > a few bunt attempts) Definitely want Doubles power minimum in the #2... any intangibles also help more so than other slots later in the order... but slugging / hitting still hugely more important. Putting a monster #2 isn't a good idea, if that's your best ops or best player etc... but some situations may warrant it, despite that fact. even # 3 gets less opportunities to rake than 4-5, so it's already starting to negatively effect that portion of the equation for your "best" ops or power guy. (ops isn't proportional, btw -- some dummy literally just added to other stats together without even thinking about it... i use ops too, don't get me wrong, but i never think it's accurate description on its own and at best is just mildly correlated with how you are using it.) i put my best pure bomber #4, but a more professional hitter with power i prefer #3... tehy can take a walk and turn the lineup over to the #4 guy in the 1st inning more often with people on base. (do you load up 1st inning for the 3rd or 4th guy? 4th guy probably more volatile but bigger returns in first innnign scoring... tuned for #3 guy in first inning you may get more consistent runs but not as big of peaks and valleys in comparison. i prefer to load up for the #4 guy) After the first inning you have virtually no control of order of batters... it's random (this is exclusive from the comment saying some spots get more rbi opps - different concept and both true). so, don't worry about order of the batters after the first inning... meaning after 1-4ish you simple want the better offensive players in descending order - because you have no idea if they are batting 1.2 or 3+ in the inning, ever. 3-4-5 #3 should be the 'best' hitter, they say... again makes sense relative to what hte player will likely see. not as many rbi-opps as #4.. probably a bit less than #5 -- despite those spots getting less plate appearances. i want this guy to have average+ eye, too... a little speed is nice but far down the list for me in most cases. 4-5 i want bombers... consistently .500+ slugging type #'s. i'm less concerned about BB and intangibles... although these 3-4-5 guys can score alot of runs, too. 6-7 - whatver you can afford... you can't always have 5 or 6, 25-35+HR guys. maybe he's got a high average and not a tone of HR... or the yhave a lot of hr and crappy BA/OBP etc.. these guys likely have flaws... raking RBI is still > running skills at #6/7. 8-9 - get into your worst offensive players for sure by this point. i take anything i can get that's better than average here... if they are speedy, i put them in front of a power guy in the bottom 3. generally i just order purly on ability to Rake after 3-4-5, but speed mixed in the last 3 is a wash most likely. So, alot of that doesn't apply outside of the modern era... if your league is higher BA and lower power #'s, you should probably adjust what you read. you can use what "they" say about modern league andn guesstimate the new weights you should put in power / eye / BA etc etc... what won't change is likely RBI-opportunites per slot in order and # of AB related to slot.. .if that needs to be said. the break-even at when you should go with power or intangibles will change (oversimplified) Last edited by NoOne; 03-31-2017 at 07:34 PM.