[Sweed]

Originally Posted by itsmb8

Basically what this all comes down to is this game doesnt simulate the role of a GM the way we want it to. This game does a great job of simulating baseball and producing stats and just how baseball works on a macro level, but it needs a lot more work on the micro level... How GMs interact with other GMs, how a front office operates, the relationships between GM and manager or between players, the logic of AI GMs, etc. etc.

This is where I wish OOTP would focus on upcoming iterations of the game.

It doesn't sim the role of GM the way you want it to. I'm not against them adding depth but for the way I play it sims GM (caveat bellow) just fine. If they added a lot of depth (hot dog prices, parking fees, or even bigger things like negotiating your own local tv contract) I'd pass that on to my assistant. And that assistant better have the AI to handle the job without bothering me

caveat: I'm not saying there is no room for improvement or that the current GM is perfect, the AI can always be improved upon. We don't need to go down the discussion road of "but this or that"... All I'm saying is the role as setup now is fine "as is" IMHO. I'd rather the GM was improved as how he looks at trades, contracts to offer etc. over trying to "teach" him to negotiate more in depth projects IE new stadium, hot dog prices etc. My 2 cents

Originally Posted by itsmb8

I remember youve been saying this for the longest time and its time more people spoke up about where we really want OOTP to focus on.

We already have great sims like this, Mogul, Strat, etc. But where OOTP separates itself is its GM mode. This is what the majority of people buy the game for, to run a team.. Not JUST to sim seasons.

Its time OOTP started to HEAVILY focus development on this front office side of the game.

That's a pretty big assumption if you mean that the majority want a game that makes them "go to work" every day. Running a team for some would be just what OOTP has them do now. IE Concentrate on getting players with a bare minimum of, as FM would call it, "backroom responsibilities".

Again not against them adding as much depth as they can as long as optional and can be delegated to the staff, that would need to created to handle these things for those that don't want that type of game.

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

Honestly don't think it's in the cards for OOTP. I just don't think it will ever be that game. OOTP isn't a game for gamers, its a game for baseball fans and the "non gamers". OOTPb is more of a "model building" experience then a true video game experience. Players design their worlds then sit back and watch it unfold. And there is absolutely nothing wrong that. And as world builder OOTP is great at what it does.

I went right from OOTPb 21 to Football Manager 20, which was my 1st FM ever, so I will share my experience. It's long but someone might like the comparison I guess lo.


OOTPb actually has way better FaceGen then FM. I would say the amount of stat reports OOTP has is far superior but the 2 sports diverge significantly in this manner. As FM is a lot more visual reporting since that is how the actual sport is played. The biggest difference in terms of the 3D engine is FM is 100% smooth. Both have glitches/hiccups and what have you but FM is completely smooth. As far as "game day managing" I would say FM and OOTP are about equal as they do top job with the game day experience.

FM does fall completely short in the 3D FaceGen department. Not sure why but they are absolutely trash awful. Other then that FM of course has the better UI and graphics. That's pretty much to be expected as its the bigger company/game/following etc. I will also give the nod to FM in the custom screen/view/searching department. OOTP is a little behind in this area not much just a little. Mostly OOTP fails in some of the player search screens. And they don't have as a robust export/import view mechanic. It is pretty close though.

The biggest difference in FM vs OOTP is absolutely the "management simulation" part. FM is outstanding in this area. Its not just the players but basically ever character in the game feels unique. Whether is ones of a dozens of assistants or one of your star players. You can't handle 2 relationships the same for the most part. All of the characters jump out of the screen and feel alive and not just numbers/ratings/stats like they do in OOTP.

FM and OOTP however take 2 completely different approaches to their individual sports. It's almost "inside out" of one another. While OOTP is hugely complex in creation/settings/customization FM is almost completely opposite. While everything to do with "man management" in FM is what is complex OOTP "man management" is basic and simple.

Just look at the individual attributes for coaches/players the 2 games show to human players and how scouting is handled. Scouting in FM is as complex as Universe creation in OOTP. This is part of the "inside out" philosophy I was talking about. Same thing with players in FM. There are over a dozen attributes, personality pro/cons, traits, hidden things, etc. It is very detailed. While in OOTP all the players have super simple ratings shown even though in the editor its a little more complex. A lot of that personality/mental stuff in FM really separates 1 player to the next.

I don't know the history of OOTP or of FM so I can't comment on that. But it appears the current offerings of FM are aimed towards gamers, or at least have a lot of gamer mechanics, while OOTP isn't really a game setup for gamers in its current offering. Which is why I referred to it like "model building".

You can really see the difference when observing FM mechanic called "tactics". There is this huge following of finding, posting, testing all of these tactics created by players. While some of them might emulate irl teams most are created with the sole purpose of beating and taking advantage the "game engine". That is a thing gamers do. I could never see most OOTP players doing anything like that. Cause OOTP players aren't really playing against the game, they are just playing out the world they created.

So FM and OOTP are both sports managements games but they 100% completely different. FM's world is simple while OOTP is complex. Then FM's inside part is complex while OOTP's is simple. 2 games in the same niche market but certainly with different scopes.


And I've never seen anything since OOTP 18 that leads me to believe OOTP wants to cater to "sports management" video gamers segment. But I see plenty of stuff that shows OOTP wants to cater towards "world building".

I don't think there is anything wrong with either game philosophy. As the consumer you just have to be aware of what style each game is in and pick the game that fits you the best.

The biggest thing wrong with OOTP is probably our personal expectations of the game. What OOTP does it does really well. Once we start to put our desires on OOTP is where the problem pops up.

If your definition of a "gamer" vs "nongamer" means a gamer tries to break the engine while a nongamer tries to play the actual game trying to be simulated, in this case baseball, then I guess you're right. But why isn't someone trying to play baseball a gamer?

I play games therefore I am a gamer. The fact I don't try to game the system, find every little chink in the armor and exploit it, spend hundreds of hours testing to see what the exact pct influence a legendary coach has compared to a average coach doesn't mean I'm not a gamer. I'd argue that the fact I don't do this makes me a gamer, and IMHO a better gamer than one who tries to break the game. And that's fine that we differ as long as your game can't have an effect on mine

The whole point of games like this is to simulate, as best it can, a real world game. Why would someone try to break it, as you note FM players do with tactics, rather than enjoy it? It's why, IMHO, online OOTP or any sports sim for that matter is simply no fun. Someone in the league is running test after test trying to figure out the underlying code to use to their advantage. Their argument? I'm not playing baseball, I'm playing OOTP "the game". Their goal is to beat the game, baseball or football has nothing to do with it. I see no joy in playing this way, just my opinion. If someone likes to play this way more power to them, I won't be there Playing baseball in OOTP's instance or football in FM's instance does not make someone a non-gamer. They are after all playing the game the way it was designed to be played, they're just not playing it your way. Unless of course Markus and the Collier (I think that's the correct name?) brothers designed OOTP and FM as a puzzle for "gamers" to solve. I know, from 20 years of reading his posts, if the question were put to Markus he would say he wanted to make a baseball game for those, like himself, that loved baseball.

You're last sentence is dead on. So we to leave it to Markus to continue to build on his vision of the game as we suggest things we'd like to see. We can agree with his decisions and continue to buy the game or, if unhappy, move on.

In any case I guess I'll be playing baseball while you'll be playing a "game"