[italyprof]

Originally Posted by italyprof

Hi everybody,

I don't know how to move a thread to the 24 game Forum, so I am just cutting and pasting the previous posts and then will post the 1972 (new) material:


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Old 03-18-2023, 05:12 AM #1
italyprof
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Can the Mets keep the Miracle going after 1969?
1969 was the first year I followed baseball fan, and even though I was a Yankees fan (RIP Joe Pepitone), it was impossible to grow up in the NY area and not be caught up in the excitement of the Miracle Mets.

After 1969, the team showed it was not quite a fluke (that 1969 team is very under-rated historically in my view, winning 100 games, sweeping the Braves and then taking four straight from the historically awesome Orioles after losing the first game of the World Series), by contending for some years after that. They even sneaked into another pennant in 1973, though barely breaking .500.

Still, there is a sense that more was possible: After all, in the worst trade not involving Babe Ruth they traded Nolan Ryan for Jim Fregosi who was washed up by that point. They had Ken Singleton and Tim Foli on their 1970 roster.

What might have been?

I have decided to start playing the Mets beginning in the 1970 season with a few rules:

1. Don't trade Ryan, Singleton or Foli
2. Don't trade Seaver or Koosman or Tug McGraw
3. Ed Kranepool MUST play out his career as a Met. He is THE career Met player after all as this great Don Lagreca rant - THE GREATEST polemic by anyone ever on any subject, makes clear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnzgpbE3xrE

4. Try to keep Jerry Grote, Bud Harrelson, Tommie Agee and Cleon Jones even into being useful bench players if at all possible.

5. No unfair or uneasonable trades with the AI (Houston keeps trying to trade me Doug Rader for not enough in return.

This leaves Mike Jorgenson and maybe some bench players as tradeable commodities to improve the team. But the Mets, like the 70s Astros or the Indians are better if they don't trade then if they do in most cases.

Obviously, the principle at work here is to have a Big Three of Seaver, Ryan and Koosman with Tug McGraw in the bullpen. Also, the team must continue to be at core the team of the 1969-early 70s Mets. A trade here or there, a substitution, but without Kranepool, Harrelson, Grote, Agee and Cleon it is not the Mets any longer, at least for a few years. At least through 1973-4 I would say.

With Foli and Singleton able to pick up the slack in the next few seasons, there is good reason to think the team can be strong.

For now, RF is the Shamsky/Swoboda platoon, and 1B is Clendennon and Kranepool. Wayne Garrett and Joe Foy is the 3B platoon and Garrett is ok, we need a better RH 3B or else a trade of both for a full time 3B. Not sure which to go with. We'll see what's offered.

I have injuries on, 3-year recalc, player development off and the same with all the clubhouse/team morale/personality stuff, off, Finances off. Five rounds of new player draft. Trades are set to two clicks more difficult than center and also for preference for prospects.

Here goes.
Last edited by italyprof; 03-18-2023 at 05:36 AM.
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Old 03-18-2023, 05:42 AM #2
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In a slight variation history, I got Rusty Staub and Balor Moore in exchange for Mike Jorgensen,Rich Folkers, Jim McAndrew and Rod Gaspar.
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Old 03-18-2023, 05:48 AM #3
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So Staub will start in RF and Shamsky and Swoboda now become bench strength - LH and RH pinch hitters and back up OFs. Moore will be a starter in the near future and a spot starter in the meantime. Ryan will replace McAndrew in the rotation. Ray Sadecki is on the roster to start 1970 and will be the fifth starter after Seaver, Koosman, Ryan, Gentry. The bullpen is Don Cardwell who is also emergency SP, McGraw, Frisella, Ron Taylor and Cal Koonce.

I also picked up Marv Staehle in the trade.

A major weakness is that Moore is the ONLY pitcher in the minors. I need to make another trade to have some P backup in the minors (I am using AAA, AA and A minors instead of a reserve list).
Last edited by italyprof; 03-18-2023 at 05:59 AM.
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Old 03-18-2023, 06:00 AM #4
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I was able to trade Staehle for Jim Bouton - not a great pickup, but if we need a Starter in case of injury he can make a few starts. If someone goes down for the season, he won't be adequate and I will need to trade real value for value. But for now that gives us a little more depth. Plus he is just coming off his "Ball Four" season, another thing linked to 1969.
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Old 03-18-2023, 05:48 PM #5
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Well, after Don Cardwell went down for 6-8 months, showing that the Bouton trade was useful as the latter is now our long relief spot starter guy, Jerry Koosman was injured for the rest of the season with our record 22-21. This is a major hit of course. I had no choice but to trade the last tradeable asset we have without cutting into our real core team - minor league SS Ted Martinez, getting Tony Cloninger from the Reds. So Cloninger with some starts by Bouton will have to cover Koosman's spot in the rotation for 1970. Ugh. The Big Three experiment has not yet gotten off the ground.
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Old 03-18-2023, 06:03 PM #6
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Gary Gentry then went down for a month! The whole thing looked hopeless for 1970, and indeed about midway we were 13 back of the Pirates.

But...far from being washed up, Jim Bouton went an astounding 8-3 with a 3.96 ERA and Tony Cloninger a respectable 8-9 with a 4.50 ERA and with our record at 83-67 and us having pulled to withing 7 of Pittsburgh with 12 games to go, Gary Gentry came off the injured list.
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Old 03-18-2023, 06:06 PM #7
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With 8 games left to play, we are 6 and a half back. Still alive. Unlikely that we can make it up and catch the Pirates, but this team just pulled off a Miracle one season ago, so who knows? But clearly, had we had Koosman all season, we would have been right in the midst of the pennant race.
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Old 03-18-2023, 06:12 PM #8
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We ended up 91-71, six games back of the Pirates, in second place. Along with the Pirates, the Orioles, Royals and Giants won their divisions. The Big Red Machine came in third in the NL West.

Mets highlights: Staub hit 24 homers, though only .249, Tommy Agee .274 18 homers, Cleon Jones .291 14 HRs, Donn Clendenon led the team with 31 HRs.

Seaver went 20-5, 3.11 ERA, Nolan Ryan 14-9, Bouton 8-5, Gentry 10-12, Sadecki 8-10.
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Old 03-18-2023, 06:16 PM #9
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Elsewhere, true to life, Alex Johnson .352, and Rico Carty .340 won the batting titles. Lee May of Cincinnati and Frank Howard of Washington each hit 43 homers to lead each league. Reggie and Harmon hit 40. Vida Blue won 17 and Mike Cuellar had 16 Complete Games, Juan Marichal and Gaylord Perry each won 19 for SF. Seaver and Sudden Sam McDowell had the most Ks in each league, 236 and 247 respectively.
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Old 03-18-2023, 06:16 PM #10
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The Pirates swept the Orioles in the World Series of 1970.
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Old 03-18-2023, 06:27 PM #11
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In the first-year player draft, Jon Matlack got drafted before we got a chance to pick, The quality fell sharply after that.
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Old 03-18-2023, 07:01 PM #12
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Traded Dave Marshall OF for Danny Cater to get more depth at 3rd base. I will platoon him and Wayne Garrett.

With Koosman back, our Big Three rotation is set again for 1971, with Gary Gentry and Ray Sadecki holding the 4 and 5 spots. Should either faulter, Doyle Alexander, Jim Barr, Tony Cloninger and maybe Jim Bouton of Ball Four and knuckleball fame are there to take up the slack. In the meantime, Doyle and Tony will be in the bullpen, along with Tug, Taylor and Frisella. The others will be in AAA unless needed in NY.

We are going to need a CF after this season as Agee will only really be a backup after that. Not sure how to make that happen. Singleton and Staub and Jones are all natural LF, RFers. Cleon, with good range, may have to be the default CF in 1972-3, but we have time before then, and for now it's Cleon, Agee and Staub in the OF, with a good bench of Singleton, Shamsky and Swoboda, though only Swoboda has any CF ratings.
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Old 03-18-2023, 07:07 PM #13
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I stupidly left the team with only Grote and Duffy Dyer as catchers. Grote was injured in Spring training 1971 and is out for two weeks. So I traded Al Weis for John Roseboro. He and Dyer will share the catching in the first week or so of the season.
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Old 03-18-2023, 10:15 PM #14
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We ended up 91-71, six games back of the Pirates, in second place. Along with the Pirates, the Orioles, Royals and Giants won their divisions. The Big Red Machine came in third in the NL West.

Mets highlights: Staub hit 24 homers, though only .249, Tommy Agee .274 18 homers, Cleon Jones .291 14 HRs, Donn Clendenon led the team with 31 HRs.

Seaver went 20-5, 3.11 ERA, Nolan Ryan 14-9, Bouton 8-5, Gentry 10-12, Sadecki 8-10.

I've found a cheap veteran player who has an unexpectedly good year is an important part of success.

Nice to see Clendenon hit 31. HIs best RL season was 28 of which 25 were on the road and only 3 at Forbes Field.
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Old 03-20-2023, 05:58 AM #15
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Thanks BradK, good point. I will post the '71 season in a few days. Traveling for work today and tomorrow.
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Old 03-20-2023, 10:46 AM #16
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Following this with interest. The first game I ever attended was in August of 70 at Shea. The Mets dropped both ends of a doubleheader to the Padres on Banner Day. Besides the two loses, I was disappointed to not see Seaver or Koosman pitch.

The Mets were shutout in the first game and were tied at 2 heading to the 8th inning of game two when the Padres hit 2 solo homeruns and went on to win 4-2
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Old 03-22-2023, 10:39 AM #17
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The Mets started the season in the pennant race for 1971, with the Phillies and Pittsburgh also starting out strong. Then, with their record 18-13, Tug McGraw went down with an injury for four months. Meaning he is out till mid-September. A serious blow. Balor Moore is called up to be our LH reliever and Taylor is back as stopper.
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Old 03-22-2023, 10:45 AM #18
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We've stayed right on the heels of the Pirates led by Roberto Clemente who leads the league in batting at .366 and RBI at 36, for all of May, finding ourselves 2 1/2 back on June 1 with a record of 29-20. Seaver is 9-1 with a 2.51 ERA, but Koosman and Ryan are struggling, with a combined 9-8 and ERAs around 4.00. Our second best so far is Gentry at 6-2 with a 2.69 ERA, and only Frisella has been effective in the pen, so he is now listed as Stopper.

All 6 OFs have started out hitting well, either with avg. or power or both. Foli has done well as backup to all three non 1B IF positions. So, some good signs. But we need to bullpen and our 2 and 3 starters to get hot.
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Old 03-22-2023, 11:01 AM #19
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At the end of June, the Phillies offered us Jim Bunning for Ed Kranepool. But I can't trade Kranepool - it's one of the rules - the team has to still resemble the Mets, even if I make some personnel changes here and there.

Anyway, Bunning, once excellent, and I think he pitched a no-hitter against the Mets at one point, forget the year, is not any better right now than any of our own five starters. So we said no.
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Old 03-22-2023, 11:15 AM #20
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At the start of July, we were still in 2nd, but now 6 and a half back, 7 in the loss column.

But things looked up in many ways: all five bullpen guys had ERAs under 4.00, and the rotation went like this:

Seaver 12-3 2.67
Koosman 8-5 3.58
Ryan 4-9 4.01
Gentry 9-3 2.57
Sadecki 4-6 3.95

Clendennon and Kranepool were each hitting over .280 with 9 homers between them. Cleon .295 7 homers. Young rookie Singleton .286, Agee .266 11 HR, Staub .247 9 homers, Shamsky .233 5 HR, Swobody .261 but no HR.
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Here is the account of our 1971 Eastern Division champion season:

By August 1 we had pulled to within 4 of the Pirates, at 63-42. The Phillies at 13 back had dropped out of the race. Meanwhile the Orioles and Twins led in the AL divisions, though Oakland was 3 back of the latter, and the NL West also was close with Houston a game ahead of the Dodgers. Houston's Bob Watson was now the NL batting leader at .329. Henry Aaron's league-leading 25 home runs had Atlanta in 3rd 8 games back.

Seaver was now 16-4, Koosman 10-8, Gentry 11-5, Ryan 8-10 and Sadecki 9-7. The bullpen, including young Doyle Alexander whom we got in a late draft round, were all improved, except Frisella whose ERA, at a full run higher than Taylor's meant we again switched the two of them.
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Old 03-22-2023, 11:29 AM #22
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On August 13th, two pieces of good news! - Tug McGraw was finally off the DL, and the Mets had caught and passed the Pirates to find ourselves alone in first place!

I sent Frisella down to the minors, as his ERA had ballooned, and with Taylor's now at 2.18, I kept him as Stopper and made Tug setup 6th inning or later, and as the secondary Stopper. This might be enough to pull it off !
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Old 03-22-2023, 11:32 AM #23
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By Sept. 7 were 5 games up on Pittsburgh, with our record standing at 88-53. Pittsburgh's Matty Alou now led the batting race at .342, with Clemente third at .319. It wasn't enough so far to keep up with us though.
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Old 03-22-2023, 11:33 AM #24
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Meanwhile Catfish Hunter and Vida Blue combined for 36 wins by the first week of September to put the As out in front of the AL West.
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Old 03-22-2023, 11:34 AM #25
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Cesar Cedeno, second in RBI, and Joe Morgan, second in stolen bases to Bobby Tolan, were keeping Houston ahead of the Dodgers.
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Old 03-22-2023, 11:39 AM #26
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And so ended the 1971 season on October 1:

AL East: Baltimore Orioles 97-65, 13 games ahead of the Tigers and 19 ahead of the Yankees

AL West: Oakland Athletics 104-58 - Catfish went 22-6 and Blue 19-10. Minnesota ended up with 98 wins but not enough. KC came in a distant third.

NL East: The New York Mets went 98-64, to finish 5 games ahead of Pittsburgh and win the division. The Phillies went 81-81 to end up third, a game ahead of the Cards.

NL West: Houston Astros 91-71, 3 better than LA and 9 better than SF.

So, Mets, vs. Houston - two expansion teams, just 9 years after both entered the league, for the NL Pennant!
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Old 03-22-2023, 11:44 AM #27
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I am going with a three-man rotation for the playoffs, with Tug back at stopper, Moore as the setup man (2.01 ERA), and Doyle Alexander as the secondary stopper and long man.

Game 1 will be Seaver (19-8) against Ken Forsch (13-10), then Koosman 14-11 against Billingham 12-13, then Gentry 15-9 against Don Wilson, then Seaver against Scipio Spinks 11-9 in game 4. We open in NY.
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Old 03-22-2023, 11:54 AM #28
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Seaver only gave up 4 hits, but three runs over 8 innings. Forsch pitched a 3-hit complete game shutout. We are down 1-0.

HISTORY IS MADE! Jerry Koosman pitches only the second postseason no-hitter in baseball history to win game two for the Mets 3-0! Jerry walked three and struck out 8, going all the way. Koosman had an RBI single as well.

We are tied 1-1.

Home runs by Joe Pepitone (RIP !) and Jim Wynn propel Houston to a 5-1 game 3 win.

In game 4, Wynn and Joe Morgan who ends up as series MVP, break open a 2-2 tie in the sixth against Tom Seaver and the Astros win the NL pennant 3 games to one.

In the AL, the first four games ended up 4-3 going Baltimore, Oakland, Oakland, Baltimore and then in the deciding game 5 the Orioles won 1-0 as Woody Fryman outpitched Vida Blue and series MVP catcher Chuck Hinton got three hits including the winning RBI.

So: Orioles versus Astros in the 1971 World Series.
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Old 03-22-2023, 11:55 AM #29
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The powerful Orioles easily defeated the Astros 4 games to 1, in a series of mostly high-scoring games. Boog Powell ended up Series MVP.
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Old 03-22-2023, 11:59 AM #30
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Aaron 32 homers and Jim Hickman 29 homers led each league - low totals really. Matty Alou hit .342 and Tony Oliva .325 to win the batting titles. Lou Brock stole 60 bases.

For Oakland, Hunter and Blue had 32 complete games (REMEMER THOSE ANYONE?!) between them, and Seaver pitched 7 shutouts (remember those - credited to ONE pitcher? - I miss baseball) . Sutton, Jenkins and Carlton had 24,22 and 21 Complete games respectively in the NL.
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Old 03-22-2023, 12:01 PM #31
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Priority for the draft is a first-baseman: Clendennon hit 10 homers and Kranepool 9. Okay but they are both slowing down. Second base looks to go to Foli in 1972. We would like to upgrade at third as well, and Grote is great defensively but can't catch forever. And no one ever has enough pitching.
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Old 03-22-2023, 12:11 PM #32
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Tough choices faced us in the draft. We were tempted to go with Steve Yeager a catcher, or Ken Reitz who plays third, both available probably earlier than our eventual first pick, Enos Cabell. Enos (here I cheat and look at real life stats) plays longer and better than the others and he plays both first and third. In round 2 we saw that Goose Gossage was available so we grabbed him. I have some second thoughts since we forwent another batter, and we might have at least gotten Celerino Sanchez to platoon with Garrett at third, but it means we have a bullpen of Tug McGraw lefty and Gossage righty for the next who knows how many years.

Third pick was a catcher, Joe Goddard, not much value, and the other two rounds got us filler and not much more.
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Old 03-22-2023, 12:12 PM #33
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Will post 1972 some time soon, Stay tuned: same bat (and ball) time, same bat (and ball) station! (If you are old enough, you get the joke and reference).
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Old 03-23-2023, 05:06 AM #34
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Aaron 32 homers and Jim Hickman 29 homers led each league - low totals really. Matty Alou hit .342 and Tony Oliva .325 to win the batting titles. Lou Brock stole 60 bases.
If I recall an earlier post correctly Alou is still with the Pirates. What position is he playing? Surely by this point hitting .342 isn't enough to make up for his poor fielding in CF.

Are you doing to continue playing Kranepool?
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Old 03-25-2023, 11:07 AM #35
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If I recall an earlier post correctly Alou is still with the Pirates. What position is he playing? Surely by this point hitting .342 isn't enough to make up for his poor fielding in CF.

Are you doing to continue playing Kranepool?
Alou is listed at 1B for the Pirates.

As for Kranepool - he and Clendennon both decline at this point, though Kranepool remains a good LH batter/backup at 1B/OF and pinch hitter. Maybe a platoon player if needed, which for the moment is the case. I need a 1B, ideally this year. Had a good draft, in that we got Cabell, but he won't be ready for a few years. Then we traded Danny Cater who I had from some previous transaction, for Jim Northrup and Elliott Maddux, the latter solves our immediate CF issue and the former will likely play 1B as often as anyone else. So it's 1B by committee for now.

I know that the real-life Mets traded Seaver, and Koosman, so technically anything goes, but I feel like it's not the Mets I am managing if I suddenly have a bunch of ex-Reds, Dodgers, Giants, etc. and no Kranepool, Cleon, Grote, Harrelson on the team. Kind of defeats the purpose if by "Mets" I mean the Big Red Machine and Oakland As. I know it's a fuzzy standard, as I allow myself to trade some but not others. But I think I have a sense at least up the mid-70s where the line is. After that,not sure.

I have already gotten one extra LCS appearance before '73. If I can get another up to or including '73, that means I did better than RL. If we don't at least make another LCS by then, since in real life the Mets came within one game of winning the World Series a second time, I won't have done as well. And really I should be aiming to at least get into the Series in the next two seasons.

After that I admit that as a Yankees fan I lost track of how the Mets were doing as my own favorite team had a very successful and interesting bunch, and then just when they started to get boring around 82 without Reggie, they got Mattingly in the second half of '83 and so on.

I will check the historical record but think that the late 70s and first years of the 80s were tough times for Mets fans, but by 1984 they were fun again, the most fun of any team maybe I can recall ever, you could see them coming already by '84. What will fate hold for my version? We shall see.
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Old 03-30-2023, 10:29 AM #36
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Alou is listed at 1B for the Pirates.

As for Kranepool - he and Clendennon both decline at this point, though Kranepool remains a good LH batter/backup at 1B/OF and pinch hitter.
Thanks for the info on Alou. I couldn't imagine the Pirates keeping him in CF this late but AI does some strange stuff.

I realize it's hard to accumulate WAR playing 1B but at 18 years Kranepool might have the longest career of any 4.2 WAR player.

I agree with you wanting to have a team that feels like the Mets. I use actual photos and I like to see lots of Pirate caps when I look at the roster! If you haven't noticed, luckmann has enacted a program to increase the number of real life Pirates in his Pirates save.
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Old 04-04-2023, 09:24 AM #37
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Hi all. I haven't left off on this, just been traveling for work. I will have some time home soon and get back to it and posting about it.
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