OOTP Developments Forums - View Single Post - With regards to the 'starting out of position' issue, here are some hard numbers

uruguru · 07-13-2024, 12:39 AM

I decided to run a 1962-1968 sim and collect some actual metrics on this problem to see if it is really a big issue or just some hyperventilation about some odd cases.

Taking Garlon's advice, I am testing without minor leagues, although honestly it's possible that an mlb-only sim could be worse. After all, once a team has to start someone out of position, they have fewer options to solve the problem (i.e. no minor leaguers to call up).

A quick summary of the problem: As historical sims progress through seasons, players gain or lose the ability to play certain positions based on changes in the real world. A good example would be Craig Biggio coming up as C, moving to 2B, and playing a season in CF late in his career. But there is also the more common case of older players (3B, OF and C) moving to 1B in their later career.

The problem arises in that OOTP players "remember" their playing experience at those forgotten positions, and the AI may not only occasionally play them in those positions, but make them regular starters. This is more common with stars who the AI wants to keep in the lineup. However, these guys are atrocious fielders and are clearly playing ahistorical positions.

What constitutes 'out of position'? On a scale of 1-10, if a player's maximum rating in a position is '1', I am calling it out of position. 2 and 3 are also really bad, but I want these to be clear cases. When a player is playing out of position, he becomes a defensive liability along the lines of 'all-time bad' liability.

The sim starts in 1962, no minors, fielding is set to 3 year averages, trading volume is average, and rookies enter the league as free agents.

For each season, I tabulated how many games were started out of position (and the amt for each player), and how many total innings were played out of position (starters and emergency subs)

As you would expect, the first season was almost problem-free. The problems start when recalcs start changing the fielding ratings of players.

I am not drawing any conclusions. This is just data so that everyone can see what is happening in a routine sim. You can decide for yourself if you think this is an issue or not. I suspect it would almost disappear completely if you set fielding to 'entire career', but then you'd end up with a lot of players in ahistorical positions (e.g. Hank Aaron at 2B) for most of their careers. Not sure if that is better or worse.

From 1962-1968:

1962 - 1 GS, 12 IP
3B 1 Lou Klimchock, ML1

1963 - 34 GS, 350.1 IP
3B 32 Deron Johnson, KCA
3B 2 Bobo Osborne, DET

1964 - 162 GS, 1445.2 IP
3B 15 Manny Mota, PIT
SS 1 Tom Tresh, NYY
SS 13 Felix Mantilla, NYM
SS 6 Julio Gotay, STL
CF 123 Rick Reichardt, PHI
CF 4 Ted Savage, PHI

1965 - 203 GS, 1633.2 IP
3B 2 Dom Demeter, PHI
3B 41 Deron Johnson, KCA
SS 2 Bob Johnson, BOS
SS 2 Tony Larussa, MIL
LF 156 Charley Smith, CHW

1966 - 554 GS, 6262.2 IP
C 12 Ed Kirkpatrick, BAL
1B 36 Bill Freehan, HOU
3B 134 Harmon Killebrew, MIN
3B 125 Tommy Harper, CIN
3B 2 Jim Hickman, NYM
3B 2 Lou Klimchock, ATL
SS 3 Tony Larussa, ATL
LF 9 Harmon Killebrew, MIN
LF 135 Orlando Cepeda, SFG
RF 96 Ed Kranepool, NYM

1967 - 491 GS, 4295.1 IP
C 6 Ed Kirkpatrick, BAL
2B 35 Chuck Hinton, PHI
2B 7 Frank Kostro, DET
3B 150 Harmon Killebrew, MIN
3B 37 Deron Johnson, KCA
3B 96 Tommy Harper, CIN
3B 9 Rick Joseph, HOU
3B 6 Frank Kostro, DET
SS 1 Cap Peterson, SFG
SS 19 Joey Amalfitano, HOU
LF 5 Willie McCovey, SFG
LF 120 Orlando Cepeda, SFG

1968 - 401 GS, 3599.1 IP
1B 11 Ron Swoboda, BAL
2B 26 Frank Kostro, DET
3B 62 Harmon Killebrew, MIN
3B 5 Frank Kostro, CHW
SS 8 Ernie Banks, CHC
LF 150 Willie McCovey, SFG
LF 86 Harmon Killebrew, MIN
LF 40 Cookie Rojas, CIN
CF 11 Ron Stone, ATL
CF 2 Howie Bedell, ATL

07-13-2024, 12:39 AM	#1
uruguru All Star Starter Join Date: May 2022 Posts: 1,311	With regards to the 'starting out of position' issue, here are some hard numbers I decided to run a 1962-1968 sim and collect some actual metrics on this problem to see if it is really a big issue or just some hyperventilation about some odd cases. Taking Garlon's advice, I am testing without minor leagues, although honestly it's possible that an mlb-only sim could be worse. After all, once a team has to start someone out of position, they have fewer options to solve the problem (i.e. no minor leaguers to call up). A quick summary of the problem: As historical sims progress through seasons, players gain or lose the ability to play certain positions based on changes in the real world. A good example would be Craig Biggio coming up as C, moving to 2B, and playing a season in CF late in his career. But there is also the more common case of older players (3B, OF and C) moving to 1B in their later career. The problem arises in that OOTP players "remember" their playing experience at those forgotten positions, and the AI may not only occasionally play them in those positions, but make them regular starters. This is more common with stars who the AI wants to keep in the lineup. However, these guys are atrocious fielders and are clearly playing ahistorical positions. What constitutes 'out of position'? On a scale of 1-10, if a player's maximum rating in a position is '1', I am calling it out of position. 2 and 3 are also really bad, but I want these to be clear cases. When a player is playing out of position, he becomes a defensive liability along the lines of 'all-time bad' liability. The sim starts in 1962, no minors, fielding is set to 3 year averages, trading volume is average, and rookies enter the league as free agents. For each season, I tabulated how many games were started out of position (and the amt for each player), and how many total innings were played out of position (starters and emergency subs) As you would expect, the first season was almost problem-free. The problems start when recalcs start changing the fielding ratings of players. I am not drawing any conclusions. This is just data so that everyone can see what is happening in a routine sim. You can decide for yourself if you think this is an issue or not. I suspect it would almost disappear completely if you set fielding to 'entire career', but then you'd end up with a lot of players in ahistorical positions (e.g. Hank Aaron at 2B) for most of their careers. Not sure if that is better or worse. From 1962-1968: 1962 - 1 GS, 12 IP 3B 1 Lou Klimchock, ML1 1963 - 34 GS, 350.1 IP 3B 32 Deron Johnson, KCA 3B 2 Bobo Osborne, DET 1964 - 162 GS, 1445.2 IP 3B 15 Manny Mota, PIT SS 1 Tom Tresh, NYY SS 13 Felix Mantilla, NYM SS 6 Julio Gotay, STL CF 123 Rick Reichardt, PHI CF 4 Ted Savage, PHI 1965 - 203 GS, 1633.2 IP 3B 2 Dom Demeter, PHI 3B 41 Deron Johnson, KCA SS 2 Bob Johnson, BOS SS 2 Tony Larussa, MIL LF 156 Charley Smith, CHW 1966 - 554 GS, 6262.2 IP C 12 Ed Kirkpatrick, BAL 1B 36 Bill Freehan, HOU 3B 134 Harmon Killebrew, MIN 3B 125 Tommy Harper, CIN 3B 2 Jim Hickman, NYM 3B 2 Lou Klimchock, ATL SS 3 Tony Larussa, ATL LF 9 Harmon Killebrew, MIN LF 135 Orlando Cepeda, SFG RF 96 Ed Kranepool, NYM 1967 - 491 GS, 4295.1 IP C 6 Ed Kirkpatrick, BAL 2B 35 Chuck Hinton, PHI 2B 7 Frank Kostro, DET 3B 150 Harmon Killebrew, MIN 3B 37 Deron Johnson, KCA 3B 96 Tommy Harper, CIN 3B 9 Rick Joseph, HOU 3B 6 Frank Kostro, DET SS 1 Cap Peterson, SFG SS 19 Joey Amalfitano, HOU LF 5 Willie McCovey, SFG LF 120 Orlando Cepeda, SFG 1968 - 401 GS, 3599.1 IP 1B 11 Ron Swoboda, BAL 2B 26 Frank Kostro, DET 3B 62 Harmon Killebrew, MIN 3B 5 Frank Kostro, CHW SS 8 Ernie Banks, CHC LF 150 Willie McCovey, SFG LF 86 Harmon Killebrew, MIN LF 40 Cookie Rojas, CIN CF 11 Ron Stone, ATL CF 2 Howie Bedell, ATL Last edited by uruguru; 07-13-2024 at 10:10 AM.