Scoring Error

CalvinHobbes · 08-20-2006, 01:10 AM

Hi, I don't know where else to post this. Please forgive if this has been mentioned before.

Pitchers should not be picking up a Blown Save in the eight inning. It's a hold at that point, not a save opportunity. I've seen it twice, can send in the box scores if you wish.

Thank you.

tysok · 08-20-2006, 10:12 AM

I'm not sure of the rules regarding this particular circumstance, but I don't see why not. It can easily be a save opportunity in the 8th inning... and if he blows the lead then it would obviously be a blown save opportunity.
Only way he wouldn't is if there's a caveat in the rules for crediting a blown save, which I don't think there is... but I don't positively know.

CalvinHobbes · 08-20-2006, 02:23 PM

MLB Rule for saves below. I wouldn't have posted this as an error if I wasn't completely sure about the rule...

See bolded section, you cannot be the finishing pitcher in a game in the eighth inning!

10.20 Credit a pitcher with a save when he meets all three of the following conditions:

(1) He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his club; and
(2) He is not the winning pitcher; and

(3) He qualifies under one of the following conditions:

(a) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning; or
(b) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck (that is, the potential tying run is either already on base or is one of the first two batsmen he faces); or

(c) He pitches effectively for at least three innings.

No more than one save may be credited in each game.

Zeyes · 08-20-2006, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalvinHobbes

Pitchers should not be picking up a Blown Save in the eight inning. It's a hold at that point, not a save opportunity. I've seen it twice, can send in the box scores if you wish.

A quick browse through the last couple days' worth of MLB box scores yields:

TOR @ TB, Aug 17th
OAK @ KC, Aug 18th
NYY @ BOS, Aug 18th
PIT @ CIN, Aug 19th
STL @ CHC, Aug 19th

Anyway, you're misunderstanding the nature of holds. Relief appearances can become holds because they're save opportunities.

CalvinHobbes · 08-21-2006, 11:01 AM

I guess I stand corrected. Sorry for bothering everyone.

CalvinHobbes · 08-21-2006, 11:12 AM

That doesn't make any sense. I've posted the rules for a save situation, and none of those boxscores fulfilled the criteria. Plus I found this through Wikpedia...

A blown save (abbreviated BS) is charged to a pitcher who enters a game in a situation which permits him to earn a save (a 'save situation'), but who instead allows the tying run (and perhaps the go-ahead run) to score.

In none of those boxscores was a pitcher brought in in a save situation (see the above rule). Some were in the sixth inning. I wonder if, because it's not an 'officially recognized stat' that it is open to the interpretation of the offical scorer? In which case I suggest that they are wrong.

CalvinHobbes · 08-21-2006, 11:21 AM

OK, thinking about this further, rule 3a says a pitcher enters a game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches a full inning; that could be a save situation. However in several, if not all, of those boxscores the pitcher credited with a blown save did not even pitch a full inning.

This is the last time I'll post about this, I guess I'll just live with it as is.

scefalu · 08-21-2006, 01:40 PM

It's easier to get a blown save than a save ... all you have to do is give up the lead. Check out the stats for the Brewers' former closer, Derrick Turnbow. That'll show you (sadly, for me) that you don't need to pitch a full inning to get a blown save.

IMHO, the whole hold/save/blown-save rule is a little goofy to me anyways. You can get a save without ever facing the tying run. You're really not saving anything, you're just doing your job. It shouldn't be a save unless the tying run is either on base or at the plate when the reliever is brought into the game, but that's baseball's doing, not OOTP.

Zeyes · 08-21-2006, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalvinHobbes

OK, thinking about this further, rule 3a says a pitcher enters a game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches a full inning; that could be a save situation. However in several, if not all, of those boxscores the pitcher credited with a blown save did not even pitch a full inning.

No, it goes like this: Section (3) defines the three alternative requirements for a save opportunity to arise. Sections (1) and (2) define additional requirements for a save to be credited.

As far as I can tell, there's only one unclear spot in how holds are credited: As per (3a), you cannot earn a save if you come into the game up by 3 runs with nobody on base, when you go less than a full inning. I think it may be possible to earn a hold that way, but it's really hard to find a box score manually that supports or contradicts that conjecture. At any rate, when the team is up by just one or two runs, even a one-out save is possible [as per (3b)], so obviously one-out holds are also possible.

Edit: Okay, scefalu's post reminded me there's one other spot that's unclear, about blown saves in particular:

Quote:

Originally Posted by scefalu

It's easier to get a blown save than a save ... all you have to do is give up the lead.

Do you know if it's possible to get a blown save when it wasn't a save opportunity in the first place, e.g. up by 4 runs with nobody on? I've been having trouble finding examples for that, too...most managers aren't dumb enough to leave a reliever in long enough to give up a 4 or 5-run lead.

CalvinHobbes · 08-21-2006, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scefalu

IMHO, the whole hold/save/blown-save rule is a little goofy to me anyways. You can get a save without ever facing the tying run. You're really not saving anything, you're just doing your job. It shouldn't be a save unless the tying run is either on base or at the plate when the reliever is brought into the game, but that's baseball's doing, not OOTP.

I agree with that. I'd like the option (here we go again

) in OOTP to change the save rule to, say, a two run lead. Then a walk and a homer tie it. I don't think I'd go all the way down to one run.
I won't pitch it to anyone, though, it's just a little thing. Plus, I'm fully convinced too many options can be a bad thing.

CalvinHobbes · 08-21-2006, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeyes

Edit: Okay, scefalu's post reminded me there's one other spot that's unclear, about blown saves in particular:

Do you know if it's possible to get a blown save when it wasn't a save opportunity in the first place, e.g. up by 4 runs with nobody on? I've been having trouble finding examples for that, too...most managers aren't dumb enough to leave a reliever in long enough to give up a 4 or 5-run lead.

I don't think so. It says in the rule that you have to be up by three runs or less. And since you can't put yourself into a save situation (eg, walk the bases loaded), I don't see it as a possibility.

Zeyes · 08-21-2006, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalvinHobbes

I don't think so. It says in the rule that you have to be up by three runs or less.

Well, the team can lead by up to 5 runs for a save opportunity, if the bases are loaded when the reliever comes in (the tying run would be on deck, then), but I get your point, and my thinking goes along the same lines. Still, maybe somebody knows for sure.

Anyway, if we're correct, the upshoot would be that a player can have such a terrible relief outing that he's not even worthy of getting a blown save for it.

battists · 10-16-2006, 08:20 PM

Alright, after many months of ignoring you guys (

), I leap into the thread to say...

Uhhh, OK, did we come to any conclusions here?

Seriously, I'm perfectly open to looking at this with Markus again, but we need to come to some sort of reliable consensus...

Let me know!

Steve

M's rule · 10-17-2006, 01:31 AM

I don’t think OOTPB gets it wrong.

Someone can earn a save by entering a game in the 6th (or any later) inning, if:his team is ahead by no more than three runs at the time, he never gives up the lead, and he finishes the game.

If a pitcher enters a game in a save situation and gives up the lead, he earns a blown save, at best, regardless of what happens after his team lost the lead (and regardless of what inning it is when that happens). At worst, he gets the loss if a runner he was responsible for scores to put his team behind and his team never thereafter ties the score or regains the lead.

A blown save is not explicitly defined, except to say (as Wikipedia does) that someone gets a BS when he could have had a save but didn’t succeed. Again, this can occur in any inning from the 6th on. Thus, it’s possible for more than one pitcher to earn a blown save in the same game.

battists · 10-25-2006, 08:11 PM

We have a rule that states that Tech Support threads wherein we have not received a response within 7 days will be closed.

This one meets this criteria, so I'm closing this.

If you want to discuss it again, just PM me with the thread link, and I'll re-open. (Don't just say "Hey, reopen my thread." I need to know the URL, thanks!)

Steve

08-20-2006, 01:10 AM	#1
CalvinHobbes Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Calgary Posts: 424	Scoring Error Hi, I don't know where else to post this. Please forgive if this has been mentioned before. Pitchers should not be picking up a Blown Save in the eight inning. It's a hold at that point, not a save opportunity. I've seen it twice, can send in the box scores if you wish. Thank you. __________________ In my opinion, we don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks.

08-20-2006, 02:23 PM	#3
CalvinHobbes Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Calgary Posts: 424	MLB Rule for saves below. I wouldn't have posted this as an error if I wasn't completely sure about the rule... See bolded section, you cannot be the finishing pitcher in a game in the eighth inning! 10.20 Credit a pitcher with a save when he meets all three of the following conditions: (1) He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his club; and (2) He is not the winning pitcher; and (3) He qualifies under one of the following conditions: (a) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning; or (b) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck (that is, the potential tying run is either already on base or is one of the first two batsmen he faces); or (c) He pitches effectively for at least three innings. No more than one save may be credited in each game. __________________ In my opinion, we don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks.

08-21-2006, 11:01 AM	#5
CalvinHobbes Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Calgary Posts: 424	I guess I stand corrected. Sorry for bothering everyone. __________________ In my opinion, we don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks.

08-21-2006, 11:12 AM	#6
CalvinHobbes Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Calgary Posts: 424	That doesn't make any sense. I've posted the rules for a save situation, and none of those boxscores fulfilled the criteria. Plus I found this through Wikpedia... A blown save (abbreviated BS) is charged to a pitcher who enters a game in a situation which permits him to earn a save (a 'save situation'), but who instead allows the tying run (and perhaps the go-ahead run) to score. In none of those boxscores was a pitcher brought in in a save situation (see the above rule). Some were in the sixth inning. I wonder if, because it's not an 'officially recognized stat' that it is open to the interpretation of the offical scorer? In which case I suggest that they are wrong. __________________ In my opinion, we don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks.

08-21-2006, 11:21 AM	#7
CalvinHobbes Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Calgary Posts: 424	OK, thinking about this further, rule 3a says a pitcher enters a game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches a full inning; that could be a save situation. However in several, if not all, of those boxscores the pitcher credited with a blown save did not even pitch a full inning. This is the last time I'll post about this, I guess I'll just live with it as is. __________________ In my opinion, we don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks.

08-20-2006, 10:12 AM	#2
tysok Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,925	I'm not sure of the rules regarding this particular circumstance, but I don't see why not. It can easily be a save opportunity in the 8th inning... and if he blows the lead then it would obviously be a blown save opportunity. Only way he wouldn't is if there's a caveat in the rules for crediting a blown save, which I don't think there is... but I don't positively know.

08-21-2006, 01:40 PM	#8
scefalu Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 355	It's easier to get a blown save than a save ... all you have to do is give up the lead. Check out the stats for the Brewers' former closer, Derrick Turnbow. That'll show you (sadly, for me) that you don't need to pitch a full inning to get a blown save. IMHO, the whole hold/save/blown-save rule is a little goofy to me anyways. You can get a save without ever facing the tying run. You're really not saving anything, you're just doing your job. It shouldn't be a save unless the tying run is either on base or at the plate when the reliever is brought into the game, but that's baseball's doing, not OOTP. __________________ Shawn

10-16-2006, 08:20 PM	#13
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506	Alright, after many months of ignoring you guys (), I leap into the thread to say... Uhhh, OK, did we come to any conclusions here? Seriously, I'm perfectly open to looking at this with Markus again, but we need to come to some sort of reliable consensus... Let me know! Steve

10-17-2006, 01:31 AM	#14
M's rule All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Seattle Posts: 925	I don’t think OOTPB gets it wrong. Someone can earn a save by entering a game in the 6th (or any later) inning, if:his team is ahead by no more than three runs at the time, he never gives up the lead, and he finishes the game. If a pitcher enters a game in a save situation and gives up the lead, he earns a blown save, at best, regardless of what happens after his team lost the lead (and regardless of what inning it is when that happens). At worst, he gets the loss if a runner he was responsible for scores to put his team behind and his team never thereafter ties the score or regains the lead. A blown save is not explicitly defined, except to say (as Wikipedia does) that someone gets a BS when he could have had a save but didn’t succeed. Again, this can occur in any inning from the 6th on. Thus, it’s possible for more than one pitcher to earn a blown save in the same game.

10-25-2006, 08:11 PM	#15
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506	We have a rule that states that Tech Support threads wherein we have not received a response within 7 days will be closed. This one meets this criteria, so I'm closing this. If you want to discuss it again, just PM me with the thread link, and I'll re-open. (Don't just say "Hey, reopen my thread." I need to know the URL, thanks!) Steve