Infield In = Good Defense

jar2574 · 09-25-2010, 02:04 PM

Has anyone analyzed whether "infield in" results in better batting average for your opponent?

I ask, because I use this infield setup anytime a runner is on third, regardless of the inning. I have found that it always prevents the runner at third from going home if there is a groundball. And I have found no penalty from using the defense -- it doesn't seem that there are more groundball hits when my infielders are brought in.

Many thanks, in advance, for anyone who can offer insight.

RchW · 09-25-2010, 02:07 PM

I hate bringing the infield in as it almost always results in a base hit and run or two scored.

SteveP · 09-26-2010, 02:42 PM

If you use "infield in" frequently during the course of games, and you are playing the AI, and you don't adjust the "infield in" team strategy setting for all the AI teams, you will be giving yourself an advantage over the course of a season. Basically, you will stop a lot of runs from scoring from 3B on GB outs hit to Infs, but the AI will not be blocking those runs when it is your team on 3B. You may give up a few extra hits but the impact of that is trivial compared to the impact of allowing all those runs to score on GB outs.

With default settings, more runs score from 3B on GB outs in OOTP than occur IRL.

Questdog · 09-26-2010, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveP

With default settings, more runs score from 3B on GB outs in OOTP than occur IRL.

What setting would govern this and what do you recommend the setting to be to imitate real life and lose the advantage over the AI?

jar2574 · 09-26-2010, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveP

If you use "infield in" frequently during the course of games, and you are playing the AI, and you don't adjust the "infield in" team strategy setting for all the AI teams, you will be giving yourself an advantage over the course of a season. Basically, you will stop a lot of runs from scoring from 3B on GB outs hit to Infs, but the AI will not be blocking those runs when it is your team on 3B. You may give up a few extra hits but the impact of that is trivial compared to the impact of allowing all those runs to score on GB outs.

With default settings, more runs score from 3B on GB outs in OOTP than occur IRL.

Thanks for the confirmation. That's what I thought I saw happening. I noticed that when you bring the infield in, you also save runs on GB outs to SS and 2B.

Simmo13 · 09-26-2010, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

What setting would govern this and what do you recommend the setting to be to imitate real life and lose the advantage over the AI?

Excellent question. I'd be really interested in any recommendations as well.

RchW · 09-26-2010, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveP

If you use "infield in" frequently during the course of games, and you are playing the AI, and you don't adjust the "infield in" team strategy setting for all the AI teams, you will be giving yourself an advantage over the course of a season. Basically, you will stop a lot of runs from scoring from 3B on GB outs hit to Infs, but the AI will not be blocking those runs when it is your team on 3B. You may give up a few extra hits but the impact of that is trivial compared to the impact of allowing all those runs to score on GB outs.

With default settings, more runs score from 3B on GB outs in OOTP than occur IRL.

I'm slightly confused. When I play out games (playoffs only) the AI seems to use "infield in" correctly. Are you referring to human strategy settings for simmed games?

SteveP · 09-27-2010, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

When I play out games (playoffs only) the AI seems to use "infield in" correctly.

Well, we'd have to agree on what is "correctly."

In OOTP, the AI will use infield in only in the late innings (perhaps no earlier than the 9th most of the time), in a close game. This is why so many runs score (too many compared to real life) from 3B on GB outs in earlier innings.

I should add, by the way, a caution about over-use of this command. I don't call plays. I only adjust team strategy settings. When the AI is calling plays for my team or its own team, it will only call infield in when the game is close (usually within 1 run, sometimes 2). So I would do the same if I were calling the plays. The question is whether or not the AI calls this play earlier in the game (which it should be doing to get more realistic results). But if you are calling plays, and you call this play any time there is a guy on 3B (regardless of the score), my guess is that at some point the hits you give up become counter-productive. I hope that is clarifies things a little.

SteveP · 09-27-2010, 12:52 PM

I had not intended to get into the "long" answer here, but I realize one more clarification is needed:

It is impossible in OOTP to get things to happen just as they do IRL with a man on 3B, no force, less than 2 outs on a GB hit to the Inf in a close game. That is because the game has severely simplified this situation. If the inf is playing in, the runner won't go (there is an exception but it is rare), so there is no reason for a play at Home. If the inf is playing back, the runner will score (as there is no possibility of a play at Home). We all know that there are a variety is things that can happen IRL in this situation (including many different types of infielder positioning), but the game doesn't model that variety.

So what I focus on is the number of runs scored in this situation vs real life -- not whether IRL teams would be playing infield in that often (whatever that might mean) or how often a guy on 3B would attempt to score in that situation, or how often they would be thrown out, etc., etc. Just the frequency of run scoring. My conclusion is that with the default settings, too many runs score in that situation. In fact, I have suggested elsewhere that this may be one of the (unrecognized) reasons why total seasonal league run scoring has a tendency to be higher in OOTP than IRL.

I hope this is clarifying things, and not adding to anyone's confusion.

RchW · 09-27-2010, 02:47 PM

Steve, thanks for both comments. You've piqued my interest in this. Where do you find the data in the game for runs scored from 3rd on GB outs? I assume that RL data is found at BR or Retrosheet?

SteveP · 09-27-2010, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Steve, thanks for both comments. You've piqued my interest in this. Where do you find the data in the game for runs scored from 3rd on GB outs? I assume that RL data is found at BR or Retrosheet?

Unfortunately, there are some stats for which there is no shortcut. I collected a list of them at one time, and actually kept track of them while playing out a season, and compared what I found to what I could get from real life box scores and game logs. In some cases, I could get multiple season info, but I decided that single season data was quite sufficient for many of the things I was looking at. I was able to use this data to convince Markus to take another look at basestealing behavior and get that fixed. In other cases, I just use it as a benchmark for adjusting settings in the game.

In this case, I thought it was quite evident that there was too much scoring from 3B, and my data collection confirmed that. Of course, I think others would have to do what I did in order to test my conclusions. However, doing that does not seem to appeal to very many people.

My preference would be to have more plays at Home (which would be the most realistic change, and I know it could be done with the existing programming) but I am OK with just keeping these run stats closer to real life even if the way to do that may seem a bit unrealistic.

jar2574 · 09-27-2010, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveP

But if you are calling plays, and you call this play any time there is a guy on 3B (regardless of the score), my guess is that at some point the hits you give up become counter-productive. I hope that is clarifies things a little.

I have called plays for 16 World Series, probably about 90 games or so. I was really frustrated with runners always scoring from 3B on infield grounders, and so I started doing this after a couple Series.

I realize that the remaining 80 games or so do not provide a huge sample size, but I have found that preventing runs from scoring on any grounder is well worth the benefit, even in the first ininng. And I have seen no increase in ground ball base hits.

My time frame is fictional 1900 - 1916, with historical strategies and ratings, if that matters.

fintach · 09-27-2010, 05:01 PM

Personally, whether or not I move in the infielders depends largely on the situation. Tight game in the late innings? Practically guaranteed. Tight game or trailing early? Depends on three things: 1) How my pitcher has been throwing, 2) how their pitcher has been throwing, and 3) how my team has been hitting in the last game or two.

If I feel like my offense is going to put up a few more runs, I may give up the run to stay out of the big inning. If I'm not sure, I'll bring them in.

09-25-2010, 02:04 PM	#1
jar2574 Major Leagues Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 405	Infield In = Good Defense Has anyone analyzed whether "infield in" results in better batting average for your opponent? I ask, because I use this infield setup anytime a runner is on third, regardless of the inning. I have found that it always prevents the runner at third from going home if there is a groundball. And I have found no penalty from using the defense -- it doesn't seem that there are more groundball hits when my infielders are brought in. Many thanks, in advance, for anyone who can offer insight.

09-25-2010, 02:07 PM	#2
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	I hate bringing the infield in as it almost always results in a base hit and run or two scored. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

09-27-2010, 02:47 PM	#10
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	Steve, thanks for both comments. You've piqued my interest in this. Where do you find the data in the game for runs scored from 3rd on GB outs? I assume that RL data is found at BR or Retrosheet? __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

09-27-2010, 05:01 PM	#13
fintach Major Leagues Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 481	Personally, whether or not I move in the infielders depends largely on the situation. Tight game in the late innings? Practically guaranteed. Tight game or trailing early? Depends on three things: 1) How my pitcher has been throwing, 2) how their pitcher has been throwing, and 3) how my team has been hitting in the last game or two. If I feel like my offense is going to put up a few more runs, I may give up the run to stay out of the big inning. If I'm not sure, I'll bring them in. __________________ Currently managing: The Bridgetown Gruffs History: Portland Purple Knights of the USBL: 1x NL Champs 1970-74 Berkeley Free Radicals of the BBL: 4x Division Title, 3x LCS, 2x Left Coast Cup Champions 2011 Portland River Dragons of the SPL: 1x Division Title 2011 Las Vegas Coyotes (MLB): half season before DH bored me to death.

09-26-2010, 02:42 PM	#3
SteveP Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,109	If you use "infield in" frequently during the course of games, and you are playing the AI, and you don't adjust the "infield in" team strategy setting for all the AI teams, you will be giving yourself an advantage over the course of a season. Basically, you will stop a lot of runs from scoring from 3B on GB outs hit to Infs, but the AI will not be blocking those runs when it is your team on 3B. You may give up a few extra hits but the impact of that is trivial compared to the impact of allowing all those runs to score on GB outs. With default settings, more runs score from 3B on GB outs in OOTP than occur IRL.

09-27-2010, 12:52 PM	#9
SteveP Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,109	I had not intended to get into the "long" answer here, but I realize one more clarification is needed: It is impossible in OOTP to get things to happen just as they do IRL with a man on 3B, no force, less than 2 outs on a GB hit to the Inf in a close game. That is because the game has severely simplified this situation. If the inf is playing in, the runner won't go (there is an exception but it is rare), so there is no reason for a play at Home. If the inf is playing back, the runner will score (as there is no possibility of a play at Home). We all know that there are a variety is things that can happen IRL in this situation (including many different types of infielder positioning), but the game doesn't model that variety. So what I focus on is the number of runs scored in this situation vs real life -- not whether IRL teams would be playing infield in that often (whatever that might mean) or how often a guy on 3B would attempt to score in that situation, or how often they would be thrown out, etc., etc. Just the frequency of run scoring. My conclusion is that with the default settings, too many runs score in that situation. In fact, I have suggested elsewhere that this may be one of the (unrecognized) reasons why total seasonal league run scoring has a tendency to be higher in OOTP than IRL. I hope this is clarifying things, and not adding to anyone's confusion.