Very Disappointed/In-game sub AI

[t-bone shuffle]

To see that this type of thing is still occurring.

At the time of the injury the Cards had Robbie Cano sitting on the bench, so you'd hope the AI would have inserted Cano, put him at 2B and moved Wong to SS. Instead we get Yadier.

Sorry, but this is just unacceptable. I've no idea how hard something like this is to "code", but it should be a priority.

I love this game, have been playing and supporting it for years, and things like this don't keep me from doing so. But IMO, it really reflects poorly, and if I were a new, "serious" user, would be vastly skeptical regarding the game's AI.

FWIW, this is an import of a league started in '13, so if this is a result of that, my apologies, but it should still be fixed for imported games.

Also, in this same vein, the AI still fails to fill in a sub (when asked to fill out line-ups/depth charts) when it doesn't have a player rated at the position in question. The AI should be able to say, insert a player rated at only LF/RF as a CF sub too, rather than simply leave the spot blank, and then substitute Yadier (he's not much of a CF either), when needed.

Some way, somehow, this needs to be prioritized. Please.

[khucke]

I whole-heartedly agree with every word you wrote!

[tonezone]

I hope a developer seriously looks at this post and addresses the situations.

Originally Posted by t-bone shuffle

To see that this type of thing is still occurring.

At the time of the injury the Cards had Robbie Cano sitting on the bench, so you'd hope the AI would have inserted Cano, put him at 2B and moved Wong to SS. Instead we get Yadier.

Sorry, but this is just unacceptable. I've no idea how hard something like this is to "code", but it should be a priority.

I love this game, have been playing and supporting it for years, and things like this don't keep me from doing so. But IMO, it really reflects poorly, and if I were a new, "serious" user, would be vastly skeptical regarding the game's AI.

FWIW, this is an import of a league started in '13, so if this is a result of that, my apologies, but it should still be fixed for imported games.

Also, in this same vein, the AI still fails to fill in a sub (when asked to fill out line-ups/depth charts) when it doesn't have a player rated at the position in question. The AI should be able to say, insert a player rated at only LF/RF as a CF sub too, rather than simply leave the spot blank, and then substitute Yadier (he's not much of a CF either), when needed.

Some way, somehow, this needs to be prioritized. Please.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by tonezone

I hope a developer seriously looks at this post and addresses the situations.

Well, one way for that happen is to post it in the Bug Thread. May have an explanation, may get a reaction, may be addressed in a update, or nothing may ever happen. But putting it there will at least give the developer the chance to review.

[t-bone shuffle]

Originally Posted by endgame

Well, one way for that happen is to post it in the Bug Thread. May have an explanation, may get a reaction, may be addressed in a update, or nothing may ever happen. But putting it there will at least give the developer the chance to review.

eg;

I did log this very thing as a bug last year in '13, I think maybe even you commented on it. Regardless, it was never addressed.

If you think it's appropriate that I log it again for the current version, I'll gladly do it. Let me know.

Thanks for the input.

[Riverdome]

Just for the record - what were the ratings and health of the players in question? You mentioned names which makes it sound obvious but we all know they are all just ones and zeros so those other factors are important.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by t-bone shuffle

eg;

I did log this very thing as a bug last year in '13, I think maybe even you commented on it. Regardless, it was never addressed.

If you think it's appropriate that I log it again for the current version, I'll gladly do it. Let me know.

Thanks for the input.

Yeah, I would. It can't hurt. Edit: Forgot to say, thanks for doing so.

[t-bone shuffle]

Originally Posted by Riverdome

Just for the record - what were the ratings and health of the players in question? You mentioned names which makes it sound obvious but we all know they are all just ones and zeros so those other factors are important.

Fair enough.

All were completely rested and healthy, Cano does show as being "cold".

Cano, listed as a 2B, is currently rated only as a 1B, yet still has error and arm ratings above average (6 on a 10 scale) and a range of 3. He has played 14 games (111 innings) at 2B, 12 of which were starts.

Wong, at age 26, carries an overall rating of 8 at 2B (infield range 8, error 8, arm 6, dp 6) and an overall SS of 2 due to a carreer total of 58 innings at SS.

Molina, at age 35, made his first career appearance at SS in the game referenced, as such has no rating at SS. His player page has him for infield range 2, error and arm 4 each and dp at 2.

All of which I believe to be irrelevant, sorry. Ones and zero's or not, the game should be able to differentiate between Cano as a middle infielder and Molina. Certainly we can take this further if we want and question the entire composition of the roster, the AI's ability to properly build a group with adequate depth, but I don't really see that here. The info above clearly shows that Cano's been playing some 2B, and the eyeball test easily shows that the proper sub should have been Cano, or perhaps anyone other than a 34 year old C who's never played an inning at the position in his entire major league career.

[JohnHoward]

Originally Posted by khucke

I whole-heartedly agree with every word you wrote!

I agree as well. This is one element of the AI which is persistently irritating and which has always been part of the game as long as I can remember. Perhaps the new depth charts will address this in some way.

I will say that in historical replays using historical lineups I have noticed (what I perceive to be) better substitution logic and only a few instances where players were radically out of position. But it is well beyond the point where we should be seeing Yadier Molina at SS, or in one of my recent MLB games, where we have Adam Dunn at 2B and Chris Davis at SS, with middle infielders available on the bench.

[statfreak]

In OOTP 13 I had a SP start a game in CF despite healthy and rested alternatives. I also had a RP start a game at 3B. The RP did have ok batting ratings, but there were still better alternatives that were actually listed as position players.

It was only the one time for each as neither appeared as a batter in another game during their 12+ year careers.

[BoofBonser26]

Originally Posted by JohnHoward

I agree as well. This is one element of the AI which is persistently irritating and which has always been part of the game as long as I can remember. Perhaps the new depth charts will address this in some way.

I will say that in historical replays using historical lineups I have noticed (what I perceive to be) better substitution logic and only a few instances where players were radically out of position. But it is well beyond the point where we should be seeing Yadier Molina at SS, or in one of my recent MLB games, where we have Adam Dunn at 2B and Chris Davis at SS, with middle infielders available on the bench.

This shows up in fictional leagues, too, consistently but rarely, if that makes sense. My no-defense slugging 1B is good for one or two inexplicable games at SS, 2B, or 3B a year (not as a starter, but sliding over to those positions later in the game).

[endgame]

In earlier versions I'd advocated, and still am, for a manager's style or preference selector beyond our present slider system and designed/dedicated specifically to lineups and substitutions, the latter affecting the former. Arbitrarily, let's just say provide a choice of: Offensive, Defensive, Balanced, Positional, Speed/Power, etc... Frankly, I don't what they'd be called, but allow the opportunity to dictate, or at least guide the substitution and lineup creation (that is, GMing it, not manually doing it) so there can be a reasonable expectation of results. Not perfect, mind you, but reasonable. Sub? What's the philosophy/preference? Defense (regardless of inning). Put in the best available defensive player, then. Sub? Positional. Shorstop out, then shortstop in and he'll PLAY shortstop in the lineup. Etc.... Lot of design work, but I do think there's merit for some future version.

[MizzouRah]

To me, it's almost like a goof up in the AI where it gets lost or something. There is no way that Molina would EVER, EVER, EVER play SS in a game, even if the Cardinals were up 25-0.

It's almost like it would have been too many moves for the AI or something.. moving a guy from one position to another and subbing in another guy.. so it said, let's just pick a warm body from the bench.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by t-bone shuffle

Fair enough.

All were completely rested and healthy, Cano does show as being "cold".

Cano, listed as a 2B, is currently rated only as a 1B, yet still has error and arm ratings above average (6 on a 10 scale) and a range of 3. He has played 14 games (111 innings) at 2B, 12 of which were starts.

Wong, at age 26, carries an overall rating of 8 at 2B (infield range 8, error 8, arm 6, dp 6) and an overall SS of 2 due to a carreer total of 58 innings at SS.

Molina, at age 35, made his first career appearance at SS in the game referenced, as such has no rating at SS. His player page has him for infield range 2, error and arm 4 each and dp at 2.

All of which I believe to be irrelevant, sorry. Ones and zero's or not, the game should be able to differentiate between Cano as a middle infielder and Molina. Certainly we can take this further if we want and question the entire composition of the roster, the AI's ability to properly build a group with adequate depth, but I don't really see that here. The info above clearly shows that Cano's been playing some 2B, and the eyeball test easily shows that the proper sub should have been Cano, or perhaps anyone other than a 34 year old C who's never played an inning at the position in his entire major league career.

The names are irrelevant too. Cano cannot be Cano without a rating at 2B. It's just a representation and a bad one at that.

Your irritation is justified. This is no different than switching mid 30's power hitting 1B to SS. This happens with some regularity in my fictional leagues

The cause of the problem is known. The AI is designed to choose the best offensive lineup. Markus has confirmed that. The process is flawed because no threshold exists for minimum defense requirements. These requirements should be higher for middle infielders and should be sufficient to cause the AI to make a trade if it doesn't have players to fill the positions.

[olivertheorem]

Originally Posted by RchW

The cause of the problem is known. The AI is designed to choose the best offensive lineup. Markus has confirmed that. The process is flawed because no threshold exists for minimum defense requirements. These requirements should be higher for middle infielders and should be sufficient to cause the AI to make a trade if it doesn't have players to fill the positions.

The AI ought to be designed to always seek the biggest net gain (VORP+ZR, for example), rather than best offense (VORP only).

[SirMichaelJordan]

Things like that sucks. But at the end of the day it is just numbers. Maybe there should be a threshold as someone with that low defensive numbers shouldn't be playing SS.

I recently had Jimmy Rollins age and eventually switched to 2B permanently, then a couple years later when he was 38, he played RF exclusively. I thought that was a nice touch.

[oman19]

Originally Posted by RchW

The cause of the problem is known. The AI is designed to choose the best offensive lineup. Markus has confirmed that. The process is flawed because no threshold exists for minimum defense requirements. These requirements should be higher for middle infielders and should be sufficient to cause the AI to make a trade if it doesn't have players to fill the positions.

You know I always wondered if that is the reason we see this sometimes. It's funny it sure does seem like it would be as simple as giving weight to the defensive spectrum but we all know it's not quite that easy.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by t-bone shuffle

Fair enough.

All were completely rested and healthy, Cano does show as being "cold".

Cano, listed as a 2B, is currently rated only as a 1B, yet still has error and arm ratings above average (6 on a 10 scale) and a range of 3. He has played 14 games (111 innings) at 2B, 12 of which were starts.

Wong, at age 26, carries an overall rating of 8 at 2B (infield range 8, error 8, arm 6, dp 6) and an overall SS of 2 due to a carreer total of 58 innings at SS.

Molina, at age 35, made his first career appearance at SS in the game referenced, as such has no rating at SS. His player page has him for infield range 2, error and arm 4 each and dp at 2.

All of which I believe to be irrelevant, sorry. Ones and zero's or not, the game should be able to differentiate between Cano as a middle infielder and Molina. Certainly we can take this further if we want and question the entire composition of the roster, the AI's ability to properly build a group with adequate depth, but I don't really see that here. The info above clearly shows that Cano's been playing some 2B, and the eyeball test easily shows that the proper sub should have been Cano, or perhaps anyone other than a 34 year old C who's never played an inning at the position in his entire major league career.

I thought Molina was who you were talking about but then thought it couldn't be. Wow.

I think the problem here is neither have any 2B ability (rating) so the AI probably went with the better offensive guy. Granted Cano is more likely to get a 2B rating but neither guy has one. I am not sure I always agree with the AI either but it has seemed in the past hitting trumps defense. Even worse weird things happen when there is no back up that can play a position. What is worse is no back is usually a function of AI roster building.

[Fenway]

Is there no workaround for this? Can the depth charts (and pinch-run and pinch-hit fields) help?

[Markus Heinsohn]

The AI already try's all sorts of stuff to get the proper players inserted based on situation. Maybe in this case Cano was tired?

Anyway, I tweaked things, in the next patch this should no longer happen if a proper player is available.