bullpen tiring

[IanIachimoe]

anyone else think guys warming up in the bullpen tire too quickly?

If I am batting in the top of the 7th, & plan on a pitching change for the bottom half, i will usually start to warm the RP up after the first out or so. if there are a couple hits to keep the top half alive, by the time I get to subbing the RP in the bottom half, he is already tiring. how much I'm not sure.

do you guys sit the pitcher back down if a rally starts? will he be 'cold' again when it's time to put him in? I thought that was how it worked unless he is almost immediately told to warm up again. is the up & down hard on the pitcher?

I have (@ times) replaced the pitcher before my at-bats were over so he doesn't tire, but obviously try & hold off if there is the potential of his spot in the batting order coming up that inning.

IRL you just call down to the bullpen & tell him to stay loose but back off throwing hard. for those who play out their games, how do you handle this in-game?

not a problem with the game as much as it is a problem with me trying to manage the bullpen. I like that pitchers now get tired if warming up for too long, but they seem to tire too quickly imo... thoughts?

[swoboda]

I like the new feature but I agree it still needs another tweak.
Would be better if you could "pause" the warm up when your team starts to rally

[IanIachimoe]

[frangipard]

I have sat the guy down for a little bit, then got him throwing again and it said "ready." Other times, I sat him (a little longer, I guess) and he was back to "cold."

Agree they tire pretty darn quickly. The feature is a great idea - you shouldn't be able to keep him throwing for three innings -- but it does seem like the relievers should be able to stay "ready" for more than 3-4 batters.

[IanIachimoe]

Originally Posted by swoboda

I like the new feature but I agree it still needs another tweak.
Would be better if you could "pause" the warm up when your team starts to rally

agreed. it's better than the old way & a "pause" would be a great idea.

long enough to stay warm & keep him from tiring out, with any break longer than a 1/2 to full inning tiring him or requiring another warming up period.

I do enjoy the added strategy of managing the bullpen this year.

[IanIachimoe]

Originally Posted by frangipard

I have sat the guy down for a little bit, then got him throwing again and it said "ready." Other times, I sat him (a little longer, I guess) and he was back to "cold."

yup, that has happened to me as well. usually after immediately getting him back up he was still 'ready'. though, it didn't seem to take much to go back to 'cold'.

Agree they tire pretty darn quickly. The feature is a great idea - you shouldn't be able to keep him throwing for three innings -- but it does seem like the relievers should be able to stay "ready" for more than 3-4 batters.

[sandman2575]

Originally Posted by frangipard

I have sat the guy down for a little bit, then got him throwing again and it said "ready." Other times, I sat him (a little longer, I guess) and he was back to "cold."

Agree they tire pretty darn quickly. The feature is a great idea - you shouldn't be able to keep him throwing for three innings -- but it does seem like the relievers should be able to stay "ready" for more than 3-4 batters.

Have to say, even though it's a fairly minor thing, this is one new feature this year that I *really* dislike. I now play games with the warmup rule disabled because of it, for exactly the reasons you list.

I'd be completely in favor of removing this, or at least making it optional. I used to like the strategizing of deciding when to get bullpen pitchers up and warming. Now, however, I really dislike the micro-management of having to check every batter if they're tiring, which they certainly do too quickly. Seems to me it's the manager's call to let the bp coach know to start warming up a pitcher. But it should be on the bp coach to monitor and regulate how the pitcher is progressing.

It doesn't seem especially "realistic" to me that a manager would let a relief pitcher 'over-warm' to the point of fatigue, just because they didn't keep constant tabs on him. If I have a pitcher warming, it's because I intend to use him within the span of the next 3-4 outs. It's not like I get guys up in the 5th inning so they can be ready to pitch in the 7th. But even under what I consider 'normal' warmup parameters, pitchers are constantly "tiring" by the time I intend to use them.

Maybe it just needs tweaking. But this is one case where 'less is more,' I think. The older system for warming up pitchers worked fine. This new system just adds needless micromanagement.

[megamanmatt]

Originally Posted by sandman2575

Maybe it just needs tweaking. But this is one case where 'less is more,' I think. The older system for warming up pitchers worked fine. This new system just adds needless micromanagement.

That depends. Does the AI use the new system? Because the old system was worse. In every possible way. The fact anyone would argue in favor of it is kinda mind boggling actually.

That said if the AI doesn't use it still then it's as useless as the original one. One of a number of reasons I don't play out games.

[sandman2575]

Originally Posted by megamanmatt

That depends. Does the AI use the new system? Because the old system was worse. In every possible way. The fact anyone would argue in favor of it is kinda mind boggling actually.

That said if the AI doesn't use it still then it's as useless as the original one. One of a number of reasons I don't play out games.

Pretty sure the AI doesn't use the warmup rule at all --

Warmup rule worked just fine in recent versions of OOTP. It's only in 16 that the 'added' fun of having to micro-manage your bullpen is leading to the problems others in this thread have mentioned.

[megamanmatt]

Originally Posted by sandman2575

Pretty sure the AI doesn't use the warmup rule at all --

Then it's just as useless as the original version of the rule.

[sandman2575]

Originally Posted by megamanmatt

Then it's just as useless as the original version of the rule.

I disagree. With the old system, you had to decide when to get pitchers up and warming. You couldn't just swap in relievers at whim, with no prior planning.

I don't see what the new "tiring" rule is meant to prevent? Like I mentioned, If I, as manager, call the bullpen and say "get Davis up and warming," I then expect the bullpen coach to take care of it. Only other interaction I should have to have is to call up again and say, "Is Davis ready?" I shouldn't have to call and hear, "Sorry, skip, I let Davis get too tired because you didn't call sooner." That's just stupid. But it's essentially what OOTP 16 is now 'modelling.'

In any event, warming pitchers are tiring way too quickly. If I were dumb enough to start warming a pitcher a few innings before I intended to use him, then yes, that pitcher might reasonably be over-fatigued. But why would I do that?

The new rule needlessly complicates what used to work just fine.

[megamanmatt]

Originally Posted by sandman2575

The new rule needlessly complicates what used to work just fine.

Except that the AI never used it.

[sandman2575]

Given how many advantages the human player has over the AI, it doesn't bother me at all that the AI doesn't use it. It still serves a purpose for the human player, namely, that you have to do a little strategizing in anticipating when to use relievers.

[megamanmatt]

Originally Posted by sandman2575

Given how many advantages the human player has over the AI, it doesn't bother me at all that the AI doesn't use it. It still serves a purpose for the human player, namely, that you have to do a little strategizing in anticipating when to use relievers.

Not really. Plus additionally it tended to mean your relievers would play better than the AI's relievers thus giving the player an advantage they don't need. With everything equal there is no chance of that happening.

[sandman2575]

Originally Posted by megamanmatt

Not really.

Because, reasons?

Originally Posted by megamanmatt

Plus additionally it tended to mean your relievers would play better than the AI's relievers thus giving the player an advantage they don't need.

This is news to me. Relievers which the human player warmed up tend to perform better than relievers the AI is able to just slot in without warming?

[megamanmatt]

Originally Posted by sandman2575

Because, reasons?



This is news to me. Relievers which the human player warmed up tend to perform better than relievers the AI is able to just slot in without warming?

Because you're vastly overestimating what it takes to warm a pitcher up much like managers do in reality. I'm not even convinced most pitchers would need to be "warmed" in the bullpen and they aren't doing more harm to them by forcing them to throw unnecessary pitches.

The strategy of RP is in picking the right reliever for the right situation.

[damonrusst]

I agree, they're getting tired ridiculously early. Makes me want to disable the rule as well and I like having to warm them up.

[sandman2575]

Hope this is on Matt's radar for tweaking in the next patch.

I still think this new feature detracts more than it adds to the game....

[jabrown6940]

Tiring in the bullpen should be related to a pitcher's stamina. A 2 reliever would tire quicker than a 4. Some relief pitchers are actually starters with a 20 stamina. They could get up in the first inning and warm up for multiple innings before tiring but that should be tied to their rest status (just as if they pitched an actual game).

[RchW]

Originally Posted by jabrown6940

Tiring in the bullpen should be related to a pitcher's stamina. A 2 reliever would tire quicker than a 4. Some relief pitchers are actually starters with a 20 stamina. They could get up in the first inning and warm up for multiple innings before tiring but that should be tied to their rest status (just as if they pitched an actual game).

Absolutely not in my opinion. Warmup is warmup, not pitching in-game.