3rd Time Through the Order - Does It Matter?

[texasmame]

Besides just generally getting tired, do pitchers lose some effectiveness the 3rd time through the order in 19?

[DFyvie]

I think that they always did.. at least the last several versions.

[NoOne]

at the very least they have alluded to it..

i.e. something akin to "if it's well-documented it's in the game" type thing.. and it is a well-documented phenomenom at this point.

maybe they have directly said it matters? by memory alone, i'm betting 99% certainty.

[Zorro]

Originally Posted by texasmame

Besides just generally getting tired, do pitchers lose some effectiveness the 3rd time through the order in 19?

Wow, You learn something new every day. I have played OOTP for years and never knew that was in the game. ....................Z

[hluraven]

I'm fairly (although only anecdotally) sure that it was either not in before, or more likely, has been much strengthened in OOTP19. I always used to run my starters out until they were tired as there wasn't a discernible tailing off in performance. Now I'm noticing them getting shelled regularly in the later innings, even when not tired.

[Orcin]

From another thread on this subject back in OOTP18...

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Always enjoy seeing people discuss what they think may or may be involved in the game.

Not always sure what I'm allowed/supposed to say, but I'll just put it out there that wherever possible, we try to be as accurate to real life as we can. If we've seen research on a subject, and we can add it to the game, it will be in the game. And I've definitely read up enough on the times through the order penalty to see that it's a real thing

[drhay53]

Originally Posted by Orcin

From another thread on this subject back in OOTP18...

One question this raises is, do the AI managers "know" about the effect, and do they take it into account?

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by drhay53

One question this raises is, do the AI managers "know" about the effect, and do they take it into account?

Well, Mike Matheny knows about the effect and... well... I guess the answer is some do and some don't.

[NoOne]

it's making use of tools beyond the human eye or gut feeling... so probably sabermetric managers, more so?

i only say that relative to a video game.. i would hope mangers in real life accept what is blatantly obvious and true. of course there would be a spectrum of how they would use that info.

in many cases it's not relevant... your hand is often forced by other more pressing matters. Fatigue is a big factor, for example. with a 162g season you can't always take out your SP after 2 times through the order... also, a select few may show that while their stats against increase but stil better than your option in the bullpen etc..

[5-4-3]

It’s real. Get a good bullpen and pull your starters after 2x through your opponent’s lineup.

[MBarrett]

I've been asking to have a function added to tell the Manager to pull starters after "X Times Through the Order" for a couple versions now.

It's not just about Pitch Count anymore. Times through the order is a very important consideration/decision for Managers now and the game needs to reflect that.

[NoOne]

pitch count matters for other stuff. it's still wear-n-tear. definitely correlated to injuries more so than IP. it's a more fundamental measurement to that end.

it's not that rare to be near 100+pitches by 2x through the lineup.

if you got 6 dominant pitchers you could probably do it most games. use RP for 1 entire lap through, stamina permitting too.

[Syd Thrift]

I didn't realize that the game looks at this. It'll definitely be a major piece of consideration even in my old timey pretend fake league when the top of the order comes up or is due up in the 8th and 9th inning...

[timmermac]

Honestly, I don't really care. Starting pitchers for me will always go a minimum of 7 innings unless they give up 6 runs.

[slugga27]

Originally Posted by timmermac

Honestly, I don't really care. Starting pitchers for me will always go a minimum of 7 innings unless they give up 6 runs.

That's a good way to make sure a team challenges the Cleveland Spiders for worst record in history...

[timmermac]

Actually, it tends to work for me.

[Zorro]

Originally Posted by timmermac

Actually, it tends to work for me.

Whatever gets you through the night. ...............Z

[slugga27]

Originally Posted by timmermac

Actually, it tends to work for me.

You must have a hell of an offense.


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[NoOne]

you could be better off is the point.. a mathematic certainty regardless of feelings on the subject.

this is akin to denying the law of gravity.

can you win and have success without doing it? of course you can... if you paid attention to it and adjusted even in minor ways would you have a higher probability of success in that same peiod of time? most definitely and undeniably true.

i don't keep enough hq rp to do this much.. and since i don't play out games i am at the mercy of my coach's decisions... but if i did, i'd win more. it doesn't make any choice automatic, you still have to evaluate based on context of the players invovled.. an rp the first time through can still be worse off then an SP the 3rd time through if their quality is vaslty different. then, you need to consider how many games you play without a day off after that fact plus current fatigue levels in bullpen.

it's really simple stuff. no joke.

[Zorro]

The wonderful thing about this game is everyone can play it the way they like. Timmermac might win more but enjoy the game less if he pulled his starting pitcher after 2 times around or he might win less because he is use to the system he plays with. Who knows? The important thing is “Does he enjoy the experience he is having”. This game has a little bit for everyone and that is what makes it a winner. .............Z