Still having issues with Catcher fatigue

krownroyal83 · 04-29-2018, 05:05 PM

After how many games should my catcher be getting tired? I assumed it was around 5 games or so when you have the positional fatigue set to average. Anyway lately catchers in my game seem to be playing 2 or 3 days then they have to take a day off for rest because they are tired. Two guys I noticed, after their game they were at 79% fatigue dispite only playing two straight says since their last day off. Simming to the next day they should recover if not fully but nope they both stayed at 79%. This is getting frustrating. In Ootp 18 catchers used to get tired after 5 or 6 games then sit out the next game or even pinch hit on their off day and guess what? They were fully rested to go the next day and could play another 5 or 6 days in a row without getting tired again. I can't be the only one still having this problem

NoOne · 04-29-2018, 05:23 PM

79% isn't a problem. if he's 'better' than the other guy by a noticeable amount, i'd still start that type of catcher. (think similar to an RP in this regard about fatigue threshold where you think twice about using him that day)

first question would be, did he recover to 100% on that day off? that could influence things on the next cycle before a day off. to that end, sometimes in a 20game-ish streatch it's better not to run them into exhaustion or even proactively rest them 1 day earlier than normal (even if you don't play them to exhaustion, if you notice they aren't recovering fully).

learn the % at which they can drop and still get back to 100% with just 1 day off. only extend them when it makes sense and can avoid 2 days off in a row. don't waste those freebies in schedule and you can maximize use as well as limiting playing detrimentally fatigued

~4-5 days should be doable. even 6, but if you do 6on/1off they will almost assuredly not recover fully from 1 day off every time and it might cost you GS in the long-run and defintely be playing near exhausted quite often. e.g. probably okay for a ~12-game stretch but not somethign you can maintain in any extended stretch of games.

~120 to low-130's g is doeable without extreme exertion. (guessing a bit, i use a custom schedule - no asg and 6on/1off each week).even so, 140-150 is ceiling with that more forgiving schedule and that would mean they are playing near exhaustion too often for my tastes. my catchers go 130-135 with an easier schedule np. (every 5th game subed, but "never" for favored split of that player)

i'll stretch them in that instance if a day off is coming "soon", then play them 1 less consecutive game the next cycle to avoid 2 days off in a row and still get to 100% on that 'next' cycle after i exerted him. that results in more GS and only 1game where they may have played a bit tired, but not exhausted (1-2% or whenver that verbage is used).

avoid 2 days off and under other circumstances avoid too many days that they don't recover to 100% - or 97-100 or 95%-100 etc..

krownroyal83 · 04-29-2018, 05:30 PM

It's not only an issue with my catcher it's an issue with i'm assuming most catchers so while I can control what I do when my catcher it tired I can't with the AI teams and if a catcher is tired he's always getting the day off from catching. I don't understand how they are getting fatigued so quickly. It was always around 6 consecutive days before a catcher got tired, now it seems like it's every 2 or 3 games. And to your question he did recover on that day off, but the issue is he's play the next two games then will need another day off that's the issue i'm seeing with a multitude of catchers. I might end up having to turn fatigue all the way down because this issue doesn't seem them be getting fixed although it's slightly better now.

NoOne · 04-29-2018, 05:55 PM

slightly tired isn't a reasone to rest them and that's after ~2 games? that's ~normal.

no other position drops like a catcher. 4-5days and 1 day off is normal and they will be ~40-50% at that point. they look further back than an SP too (nomatter how many pitches you throw with an SP, they never need more than 1 extra day to get to 100% above normal days rest).. it's not jsut the last week.. might be ~10days or more.. i never tried to flesh it out.

what i mean: if you exert them in the previous ~10-15days, they get tired sooner than ~normal. if there is a variance, it shoudl be caused by this..

zoom out and see what's happening -- look at an AI controlled team with 1 great catcher and no competition to cannibalize starts... if they get 120-130ish GS, it's probably fine... if not look into making a bug report.

Sweed · 04-29-2018, 06:17 PM

I'm seeing this too and was about to come here and post. krownroyal83 is right 5 days and then a day off kept your guy rested in previous versions.

Sure I suppose one could go ahead and play their C but that's not really the point. The point is something has changed from all previous versions of OOTP with regard to C fatigue. If this is the new normal that is fine as long as the AI deals with it by not benching it's C's below 100% and we are aware and can plan for it.

I play out all of my games so this doesn't sneak up on me and there are still times my C can play 5 in a row. So what's the cause of only sometimes? I don't know the answer but I started to wonder if C's are now paying a penalty for catching a day game following a night game? If that's the cause then I think it's probably realistic and pretty cool.

My C is "durable" and, like krownroyal83's C, is tired after a 3 game set, day off, and then 2 games played. BUT the last 2 games of the 3 game series was a night game followed by an afternoon "get away game". Coincidence? I don't know but I'm going to keep an eye on it.

Would be nice if Matt or Markus could comment.

krownroyal83 · 04-29-2018, 06:27 PM

Looks like i might have been mistaken. Taking a look at ootp 18 and i'm seeing the same trend. So it can't be a bug with this game like I thought. I just found it weird that after a couple weeks into the season catchers only would play 2 or 3 games before needing a rest. I'll probably mess with the fatigue level so I can get them to play around 5 games without needing a rest. Thanks for the help.

NoOne · 04-29-2018, 10:32 PM

sweed, is it a 5+ days on and 1 day off followed by a 2-3 game stretch?

catchers look at X days in past and exceeds 7 days at least. start tracking further back beyond last day off. it will defintiely adhere to specific rules.. i don't remember them anymore but i used to have it worked out when i played games out.

lazy now.. i got rid of ASG and added those days off thruoghout schedule. then went from ~184 to ~189day schedule.. still get reg season done by october 7th at the latest. (5days on 1 off -- catcher gets ~131-135 with a backup at "every 5th day" and called it good enough)

i don't think day/night back-to-back matters, but maybe it does in '19? either durability or catcher ability def influenced how much they could play, if i recall. matt or markus won't map it out for us, but i can tell from experience you can map it out iwth 100% ability to predict in future, if you want. i've done it before, but have since lost the memory due to lack of use.

Sweed · 04-30-2018, 12:44 AM

No it's not 5+ as my C's never play more than 5 in a row.

In previous versions 5 on 1 off always worked as a hard rule for me with "average" setting for fatigue since v4(2002). Yes 5 of 6 puts you right at 135 starts at C and with injury, natural L or R hitting ability situations, days
off, etc. only the best C's are going to get to that level, as it should be.

I am the last guy that would ask Markus or Matt for under the hood secrets just looking for acknowledgement that
A. something has actually changed and working as designed
or
B. nothing has changed which begs the question why is the fatigue level for C different in v19? (I've not noticed any difference for any other positions)

The idea that day game following a night game may have been added as a consideration for C fatigue would be awesome if confirmed as it has been something users have asked about in the past. However since it's not mentioned in any new feature lists I'm somewhat sure it's not the cause.

Keep in mind, unlike relief pitchers, 90-100% rested is, at least in all previous versions of OOTP, considered to be the norm for position players. The AI normally won't sub anyone unless they go below 90% unless it set it's lineup with platoons, or every "x" days. Playing a C at below 90% isn't anything like having a reliever doing the same. Drop that C to 50-75% and your asking for injury, low performance where a RP can be expected to pitch in that area if forced into it by circumstance. Though with good bullpen management and a little luck that should rarely happen

One thing comes to mind as I type...

My situation is 3 games, day off, 2 games IE my guy played 5 out of 6 days compared to the old 5 out of 6 games.....

Coincidence?,
New design?,
Bug and the game is counting days instead of games?,
None of the above?

Matt Arnold · 04-30-2018, 11:31 AM

Fatigue has been altered overall in 19, so I'd certainly expect that some values would be different than they are in 18. I know in the past catchers were playing too much - too many times catchers got 140+ games. Last year in MLB only 4 catchers played 130+ games. And even they didn't necessarily catch that many - the leaders for games started at catcher last year was Molina 133, Maldonado 131, Realmuto 125, and then a few guys at 113.

So the real questions to ask is, at the end of the season, how often are catchers playing? If only a couple guys are making it to 130+, then that's realistic.

Also, we don't have the "day game after night game" adjustment. We'll get that in someday, but not yet.

Sweed · 04-30-2018, 12:06 PM

Thanks Matt.

Appreciate the explanation and agree that C's could play too much in previous versions. Getting OOTP fine tuned to even more realistic numbers is always a good thing.

With the earlier fatigue issue, that was fixed in the latest patch, I hadn't bothered mentioning this as I waited for said patch. With C fatigue still being different than previous versions I wanted to be sure
it was by design. All good

and thanks again for taking the time to answer

krownroyal83 · 04-30-2018, 01:51 PM

Glad there was an answer to this. I changed the positional fatigue setting to low, but if average is where it should be, and based on what i'm seeing in game and what Matt said that's where it should be, to be most realisti,c so i'll likely change it back. Of course i'm running a fictional league so what is realistic is what I choose it to be.

04-29-2018, 05:05 PM	#1
krownroyal83 All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 955	Still having issues with Catcher fatigue After how many games should my catcher be getting tired? I assumed it was around 5 games or so when you have the positional fatigue set to average. Anyway lately catchers in my game seem to be playing 2 or 3 days then they have to take a day off for rest because they are tired. Two guys I noticed, after their game they were at 79% fatigue dispite only playing two straight says since their last day off. Simming to the next day they should recover if not fully but nope they both stayed at 79%. This is getting frustrating. In Ootp 18 catchers used to get tired after 5 or 6 games then sit out the next game or even pinch hit on their off day and guess what? They were fully rested to go the next day and could play another 5 or 6 days in a row without getting tired again. I can't be the only one still having this problem Attached Images

04-29-2018, 05:23 PM	#2
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	79% isn't a problem. if he's 'better' than the other guy by a noticeable amount, i'd still start that type of catcher. (think similar to an RP in this regard about fatigue threshold where you think twice about using him that day) first question would be, did he recover to 100% on that day off? that could influence things on the next cycle before a day off. to that end, sometimes in a 20game-ish streatch it's better not to run them into exhaustion or even proactively rest them 1 day earlier than normal (even if you don't play them to exhaustion, if you notice they aren't recovering fully). learn the % at which they can drop and still get back to 100% with just 1 day off. only extend them when it makes sense and can avoid 2 days off in a row. don't waste those freebies in schedule and you can maximize use as well as limiting playing detrimentally fatigued ~4-5 days should be doable. even 6, but if you do 6on/1off they will almost assuredly not recover fully from 1 day off every time and it might cost you GS in the long-run and defintely be playing near exhausted quite often. e.g. probably okay for a ~12-game stretch but not somethign you can maintain in any extended stretch of games. ~120 to low-130's g is doeable without extreme exertion. (guessing a bit, i use a custom schedule - no asg and 6on/1off each week).even so, 140-150 is ceiling with that more forgiving schedule and that would mean they are playing near exhaustion too often for my tastes. my catchers go 130-135 with an easier schedule np. (every 5th game subed, but "never" for favored split of that player) i'll stretch them in that instance if a day off is coming "soon", then play them 1 less consecutive game the next cycle to avoid 2 days off in a row and still get to 100% on that 'next' cycle after i exerted him. that results in more GS and only 1game where they may have played a bit tired, but not exhausted (1-2% or whenver that verbage is used). avoid 2 days off and under other circumstances avoid too many days that they don't recover to 100% - or 97-100 or 95%-100 etc.. Last edited by NoOne; 04-29-2018 at 05:32 PM.

04-29-2018, 05:55 PM	#4
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	slightly tired isn't a reasone to rest them and that's after ~2 games? that's ~normal. no other position drops like a catcher. 4-5days and 1 day off is normal and they will be ~40-50% at that point. they look further back than an SP too (nomatter how many pitches you throw with an SP, they never need more than 1 extra day to get to 100% above normal days rest).. it's not jsut the last week.. might be ~10days or more.. i never tried to flesh it out. what i mean: if you exert them in the previous ~10-15days, they get tired sooner than ~normal. if there is a variance, it shoudl be caused by this.. zoom out and see what's happening -- look at an AI controlled team with 1 great catcher and no competition to cannibalize starts... if they get 120-130ish GS, it's probably fine... if not look into making a bug report. Last edited by NoOne; 04-29-2018 at 06:00 PM.

04-29-2018, 06:27 PM	#6
krownroyal83 All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 955	Looks like i might have been mistaken. Taking a look at ootp 18 and i'm seeing the same trend. So it can't be a bug with this game like I thought. I just found it weird that after a couple weeks into the season catchers only would play 2 or 3 games before needing a rest. I'll probably mess with the fatigue level so I can get them to play around 5 games without needing a rest. Thanks for the help. Last edited by krownroyal83; 04-29-2018 at 06:47 PM.

04-29-2018, 10:32 PM	#7
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	sweed, is it a 5+ days on and 1 day off followed by a 2-3 game stretch? catchers look at X days in past and exceeds 7 days at least. start tracking further back beyond last day off. it will defintiely adhere to specific rules.. i don't remember them anymore but i used to have it worked out when i played games out. lazy now.. i got rid of ASG and added those days off thruoghout schedule. then went from ~184 to ~189day schedule.. still get reg season done by october 7th at the latest. (5days on 1 off -- catcher gets ~131-135 with a backup at "every 5th day" and called it good enough) i don't think day/night back-to-back matters, but maybe it does in '19? either durability or catcher ability def influenced how much they could play, if i recall. matt or markus won't map it out for us, but i can tell from experience you can map it out iwth 100% ability to predict in future, if you want. i've done it before, but have since lost the memory due to lack of use. Last edited by NoOne; 04-29-2018 at 10:35 PM.

04-29-2018, 05:30 PM	#3
krownroyal83 All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 955	It's not only an issue with my catcher it's an issue with i'm assuming most catchers so while I can control what I do when my catcher it tired I can't with the AI teams and if a catcher is tired he's always getting the day off from catching. I don't understand how they are getting fatigued so quickly. It was always around 6 consecutive days before a catcher got tired, now it seems like it's every 2 or 3 games. And to your question he did recover on that day off, but the issue is he's play the next two games then will need another day off that's the issue i'm seeing with a multitude of catchers. I might end up having to turn fatigue all the way down because this issue doesn't seem them be getting fixed although it's slightly better now.

04-29-2018, 06:17 PM	#5
Sweed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 6,714	I'm seeing this too and was about to come here and post. krownroyal83 is right 5 days and then a day off kept your guy rested in previous versions. Sure I suppose one could go ahead and play their C but that's not really the point. The point is something has changed from all previous versions of OOTP with regard to C fatigue. If this is the new normal that is fine as long as the AI deals with it by not benching it's C's below 100% and we are aware and can plan for it. I play out all of my games so this doesn't sneak up on me and there are still times my C can play 5 in a row. So what's the cause of only sometimes? I don't know the answer but I started to wonder if C's are now paying a penalty for catching a day game following a night game? If that's the cause then I think it's probably realistic and pretty cool. My C is "durable" and, like krownroyal83's C, is tired after a 3 game set, day off, and then 2 games played. BUT the last 2 games of the 3 game series was a night game followed by an afternoon "get away game". Coincidence? I don't know but I'm going to keep an eye on it. Would be nice if Matt or Markus could comment.

04-30-2018, 12:44 AM	#8
Sweed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 6,714	No it's not 5+ as my C's never play more than 5 in a row. In previous versions 5 on 1 off always worked as a hard rule for me with "average" setting for fatigue since v4(2002). Yes 5 of 6 puts you right at 135 starts at C and with injury, natural L or R hitting ability situations, days off, etc. only the best C's are going to get to that level, as it should be. I am the last guy that would ask Markus or Matt for under the hood secrets just looking for acknowledgement that A. something has actually changed and working as designed or B. nothing has changed which begs the question why is the fatigue level for C different in v19? (I've not noticed any difference for any other positions) The idea that day game following a night game may have been added as a consideration for C fatigue would be awesome if confirmed as it has been something users have asked about in the past. However since it's not mentioned in any new feature lists I'm somewhat sure it's not the cause. Keep in mind, unlike relief pitchers, 90-100% rested is, at least in all previous versions of OOTP, considered to be the norm for position players. The AI normally won't sub anyone unless they go below 90% unless it set it's lineup with platoons, or every "x" days. Playing a C at below 90% isn't anything like having a reliever doing the same. Drop that C to 50-75% and your asking for injury, low performance where a RP can be expected to pitch in that area if forced into it by circumstance. Though with good bullpen management and a little luck that should rarely happen One thing comes to mind as I type... My situation is 3 games, day off, 2 games IE my guy played 5 out of 6 days compared to the old 5 out of 6 games..... Coincidence?, New design?, Bug and the game is counting days instead of games?, None of the above? Last edited by Sweed; 04-30-2018 at 12:45 AM.

04-30-2018, 11:31 AM	#9
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 15,855	Fatigue has been altered overall in 19, so I'd certainly expect that some values would be different than they are in 18. I know in the past catchers were playing too much - too many times catchers got 140+ games. Last year in MLB only 4 catchers played 130+ games. And even they didn't necessarily catch that many - the leaders for games started at catcher last year was Molina 133, Maldonado 131, Realmuto 125, and then a few guys at 113. So the real questions to ask is, at the end of the season, how often are catchers playing? If only a couple guys are making it to 130+, then that's realistic. Also, we don't have the "day game after night game" adjustment. We'll get that in someday, but not yet.

04-30-2018, 12:06 PM	#10
Sweed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 6,714	Thanks Matt. Appreciate the explanation and agree that C's could play too much in previous versions. Getting OOTP fine tuned to even more realistic numbers is always a good thing. With the earlier fatigue issue, that was fixed in the latest patch, I hadn't bothered mentioning this as I waited for said patch. With C fatigue still being different than previous versions I wanted to be sure it was by design. All good and thanks again for taking the time to answer

04-30-2018, 01:51 PM	#11
krownroyal83 All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 955	Glad there was an answer to this. I changed the positional fatigue setting to low, but if average is where it should be, and based on what i'm seeing in game and what Matt said that's where it should be, to be most realisti,c so i'll likely change it back. Of course i'm running a fictional league so what is realistic is what I choose it to be.