AI Line-up Issues/Realism

[Trav876]

I posted this in technical forums but not sure if it's actually a "bug" per se, and wondering if anyone else runs into this (so, figured general discussions would be good to post to get more views).

Am I doing something wrong, or do other people notice that the AI is terrible at deciding where to hit certain players in the line up when there are pre-game, fatigue subs, as far as "baseball realism" goes? It's as if they are drawing from a hat.

For example (& I run into many examples like this all the time), this is the AI's "recommended" line-up- before I override it of course... Deion Sanders hitting clean-up, who has a 40 power rating according to my scout (which is lower or as low as anyone else in the line-up), and has the 2nd lowest slugging % on the team.

His "expectation" is not to be hitting clean-up/middle of the order... he is not coming off of a season (or seasons) of hitting lots of HRs (he's been in single digits).

Yet, if I were to sim this out without going in each game & manually overriding, he would be hitting clean-up this game (& actually, many of them), which likely wouldn't happen ever in real life, but this type of stuff happens all the time in this game.

Since he is also not in my normal starting line-up (on my "line-ups," he is a bench player), I also can't "force spot in the order"... if that would even help.

The AI logic just seems quite off here, and I notice it all the time with line-ups.

[Larryk007]

I agree with you on this. I am playing a 1980's to current sim which the power bat is the clean up spot during that era. My power guy bats second in the AI world......I wish the game would allow the manager profile to have an option for the type of lineup, ie traditional, on base guy bats first, best contact hitter second, third average guy, then power and so on.

[Brad K]

Why can't you force a lineup spot for a bench player? The game lets you make the selection on a bench player. Suggest you set it and test it.

[LansdowneSt]

Originally Posted by Larryk007

I agree with you on this. I am playing a 1980's to current sim which the power bat is the clean up spot during that era. My power guy bats second in the AI world......I wish the game would allow the manager profile to have an option for the type of lineup, ie traditional, on base guy bats first, best contact hitter second, third average guy, then power and so on.

It does have something to inform you though, it's just the reverse. The manager profile page has a "Sample Line-up" tab where they tell you exactly what their line-up will be with your team. Reminds me of Moneyball where Art Howe's telling Billy Beane, he's going to set the line-up so long as he's the manager. You want someone else starting or a different line-up, get a new manager... or trade Carlos Pena...

[Larryk007]

Oh, yes, I can force the place in the lineups for each player, but the AI for the manager "Ask Manager for all depth charts and lineups" should be something in the manager profile. Saying this, I understand there are several lineup options, like Daily Lineups and the Manager Sample Lineups, but I think those are too much detail and work for a long sim. Everybody plays differently of course; I am managing all teams with minors, and I need all the AI help I can get!!!

[Trav876]

Problem with these solutions, is that this is not the AI regular manager line-up. This is a fatigue sub.

So if you look at the "normal line-up" for the manager, it looks at least realistic or semi-realistic. In this example, Sanders would not be in the line-up at all on their sample line up.

Otherwise, instead of needing to go in on every player on the team & "suggest spot in line-up" (even if, as it sounds, you can do that on bench players), is it not kind of a big issue for this game & the realism that it prides itself on, to have an AI that seemingly just kind of randomly put hitters wherever in the order? Unless there is some kind of logic, in which case you would think/hope the developers could improve on that logic. Because it also obviously happens to teams you play against, as well.

Are line-ups not that big of deal to the developers, or people who play this game? It seems like that would be a big thing to address... unless in the modern years of the game, it doesn't do this?

Just adding an edit: Playing right now and same thing happened...Craig Counsell is the clean-up hitter this time by default (because there is fatigue on regular starters, so the line-up is different than what you'd normally expect from your manager)

[fredbeene]

why does every team have to have the same profile every time. Not all AI should be the same. that is what makes replays boring as there is no randomize feature

[Brad K]

I don't see that an occasional lineup I don't agree with is a problem.

[Trav876]

Originally Posted by Brad K

I don't see that an occasional lineup I don't agree with is a problem.

Originally Posted by fredbeene

why does every team have to have the same profile every time. Not all AI should be the same. that is what makes replays boring as there is no randomize feature

Of course, and I agree. But I must not be explaining this well enough.

There is a difference between line-ups we "wouldn't agree with," and managers/AI in this game quite often having players with no power hitting in the 3,4,5 spots. Especially when there are numerous other options (high SLG guys, high HR guys) to have in those spots.

It's just a realism thing.

I would put money on Counsell nor Sanders never having hit clean-up even once in their entire careers, in real life. Players like that (with no power ratings nor power stats) end up hitting in the 3,4,5 hole all the time in this game.

Strangely it always seems to be when there are fatigue subs. It's never the "default" order for the managers/AI.

[LansdowneSt]

I’m looking at the screenshot and you are about to play out the game. It may be that it expects you to make any changes as you are there in control. Whereas, if you were not there (just simming for a week or a day) Deion wouldn’t be there in the clean-up spot. I tend to sim days and look at box scores and this hasn’t been an issue for me. If that’s the case it’s a more narrow (and less noticed) issue.

[Matt Arnold]

The issue with fatigue subs is that, generally speaking, the AI tries not to be too aggressive at shifting around your lineup. When your cleanup hitter is sitting out, it will naturally take the lineup with the replacement swapped into that spot. Now, usually if they are a worse hitter like a Counsell or Sanders, it should swap them down in the lineup. But if there's something preventing that (do you have a force lineup spot on any of those other guys lower down?), it might not find a suitable swap. When it subs in for defense it doesn't try to rebuild your lineup from scratch necessarily, since most teams tend to stick with their normal lineup but just take a few small tweaks, when someone sits.

[Trav876]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

The issue with fatigue subs is that, generally speaking, the AI tries not to be too aggressive at shifting around your lineup. When your cleanup hitter is sitting out, it will naturally take the lineup with the replacement swapped into that spot. Now, usually if they are a worse hitter like a Counsell or Sanders, it should swap them down in the lineup. But if there's something preventing that (do you have a force lineup spot on any of those other guys lower down?), it might not find a suitable swap. When it subs in for defense it doesn't try to rebuild your lineup from scratch necessarily, since most teams tend to stick with their normal lineup but just take a few small tweaks, when someone sits.

Thanks for chiming in Matt. No, I don't have any other "force line-up" or anything enabled. It just usually rarely swaps them down in the line-up..not sure why this issue. Happens with opponents as well, even when simming the game without entering (as LansdowneSt mentioned above).

Perhaps that can be something that's looked into? Unless it's just me & I'm doing something wrong. But everything is on default otherwise..no "force spots in the order" with any other guys.

Does it have to do with being a historical sim?

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

I’m looking at the screenshot and you are about to play out the game. It may be that it expects you to make any changes as you are there in control. Whereas, if you were not there (just simming for a week or a day) Deion wouldn’t be there in the clean-up spot. I tend to sim days and look at box scores and this hasn’t been an issue for me. If that’s the case it’s a more narrow (and less noticed) issue.

I also do a week at a time and read box scores. I haven't noticed this issue.

However I have noticed that AI will put a fast runner in 1 or 2 even when he doesn't get on base.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by fredbeene

why does every team have to have the same profile every time. Not all AI should be the same. that is what makes replays boring as there is no randomize feature

My view is that each teams AI should be the best it can possibly be. A human has enough advantages already. Weakening AI with randomization is a bad idea.

[Trav876]

Originally Posted by Brad K

I also do a week at a time and read box scores. I haven't noticed this issue.

Weird. Wonder why it happens to me all the time. Do you have fatigue on? As I mentioned, this seems to only happen with fatigue subs.

Originally Posted by Brad K

However I have noticed that AI will put a fast runner in 1 or 2 even when he doesn't get on base.

Can you elaborate? Do you mean a pinch runner? Or something that's going against the rules of baseball?

Originally Posted by Brad K

My view is that each teams AI should be the best it can possibly be. A human has enough advantages already. Weakening AI with randomization is a bad idea.

Fully agreed. Which is why this bug is an issue where weak hitters get put in the middle of the order quite often.

[Syd Thrift]

I believe that one of the things that differentiates lineups composed with the "use sabermetrics" vs "traditional" option is that the game will often put fast players who don't necessarily get on base a lot with "traditional" (and then do the other "traditional lineup" things - good bat control 2nd, your best overall hitter 3rd, your best power hitter 4th, and so on) whereas I'm pretty sure the sabermetric version will just slot your 3 best hitters 1, 2, and 4 depending on how their are with OBP and speed.

I'm more in favor of the AI constructing lineups and making transactions that are appropriate for the era you're playing in than doing the best things have to offer. The decision that jumps out at me is the Yankees hitting Frankie Crosetti leadoff for all of 1939 and most of 1940 in spite of the fact that, you know, he couldn't hit (not sure why I remember this - think I might have taken a deep dive on Scooter Rizzuto's career at one point). Will players have undue advantage with this? Sure, a little bit. Lineup construction is less of an issue than who goes into the lineup every day, but it's a factor I guess. Between an AI that uses traditional lineup selections and occasionally bats iffy guys 1st or 2nd and an AI that bats Eddie Mathews or Hank Aaron leadoff for the 50s Braves, I'll go with the fomer, thanks.

[darkcloud4579]

Originally Posted by Brad K

My view is that each teams AI should be the best it can possibly be. A human has enough advantages already. Weakening AI with randomization is a bad idea.

I agree with this for sure

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Trav876

Can you elaborate? Do you mean a pinch runner? Or something that's going against the rules of baseball?

Concerning a fast runner in the 1 or 2 slot, I mean the starting lineup.

ATTENTION MODS: Here's a situation that shows single level quoting is bad.

EDIT NOTE: The comment about the single level quoting is about what the board is set up to do, not anything Trav876 did. I had to explain the question I was answering in my reply which would not be necessary if the board had two levels of quoting.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Trav876

Weird. Wonder why it happens to me all the time. Do you have fatigue on? As I mentioned, this seems to only happen with fatigue subs.

Yes. Default settings.

[Trav876]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I believe that one of the things that differentiates lineups composed with the "use sabermetrics" vs "traditional" option is that the game will often put fast players who don't necessarily get on base a lot with "traditional" (and then do the other "traditional lineup" things - good bat control 2nd, your best overall hitter 3rd, your best power hitter 4th, and so on) whereas I'm pretty sure the sabermetric version will just slot your 3 best hitters 1, 2, and 4 depending on how their are with OBP and speed.

I'm more in favor of the AI constructing lineups and making transactions that are appropriate for the era you're playing in than doing the best things have to offer. The decision that jumps out at me is the Yankees hitting Frankie Crosetti leadoff for all of 1939 and most of 1940 in spite of the fact that, you know, he couldn't hit (not sure why I remember this - think I might have taken a deep dive on Scooter Rizzuto's career at one point). Will players have undue advantage with this? Sure, a little bit. Lineup construction is less of an issue than who goes into the lineup every day, but it's a factor I guess. Between an AI that uses traditional lineup selections and occasionally bats iffy guys 1st or 2nd and an AI that bats Eddie Mathews or Hank Aaron leadoff for the 50s Braves, I'll go with the fomer, thanks.

Yes, I'm all for the "era" being related to how line-ups are constructed. Not sure if the game does that or not (since I haven't messed with other eras), but whether traditional or sabermetric, there's no way Counsell or Sanders (per the original post) should really ever be in the clean-up spot, which stuff like that happens all the time in my sims- again, in fatigue subs mainly (that's when I notice it, at least).

Have you noticed things like that with fatigue subs? I tend to pay a lot of attention to box scores, every day. So it's not something you would see unless checking it out daily, every day, for weeks... but happens with opponents too, quite often as well.