Development Lab: What factors are involved?

[Pdubya64]

Will & Co.:

I am wondering what elements of your team in OOTP 26 will influence outcomes in the Development Lab.
The first that comes to mind would be the quality of your coaching staff (all or just MLB-level?). Second would be your Player Development Budget.

Can you comment on factors involved here?
Thanks.

[Will Beh]

Hey! Elements in 26 will be similar to 25 and include;
player personality, coaching staff, age, morale, and a few much more minor ones. New to 26 is that if a player gets injured while in the lab, it'll slow down his day to day progress massively.
For the coaching staff I believe it's only the ones from the MLB that will be working at the facility, although different coaches are needed for different programs. I think the development budget affects the lab in a secondary way, in that it partly improves how well the coaches can work.
*Edit* And of course I forgot to mention, the programs difficulties themselves will define what's a success and what's not. In 26 with the new lab, it'll be much clearer what those cutoffs are

[Brad K]

Does the learn a new position assignment allow us to specify which position a player will try to learn?

[Will Beh]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Does the learn a new position assignment allow us to specify which position a player will try to learn?

Not in 26; the problem I've been facing with this one is that if you could choose the position then it's basically the same as just starting your guy at that position in spring training (cause you can teach them any position in spring training already). So what makes this program different is that, while you rely on your staff to pick the position, if it's a new area of the field then they will teach the player the basics of that position as well (unlike in spring training). I.e. if your player is an infielder with no outfield experience and they try him out in center, if it works out he'll gain outfield range, outfield error, and outfield arm. That's unlike if you started him there in spring training, in which case he'll just gain experience at the position but might still suck. Tbh I've considered removing this program because I get that people want to choose the position so this feels bad, but if you can choose the position then it's just a better version of something already in the game. But if I remove the bonus to ratings that they get, then it's just the same thing as playing the player at the position in spring training, so it's kind of pointless. So to keep it in it's own niche it would need to stay as-is. That being said, with the new midterm emails in 26, you'll be able to see what position your staff chose for the player, and you can pull them out if they aren't performing well and you don't like the position.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Will Beh

Not in 26; the problem I've been facing with this one is that if you could choose the position then it's basically the same as just starting your guy at that position in spring training (cause you can teach them any position in spring training already). So what makes this program different is that, while you rely on your staff to pick the position, if it's a new area of the field then they will teach the player the basics of that position as well (unlike in spring training). I.e. if your player is an infielder with no outfield experience and they try him out in center, if it works out he'll gain outfield range, outfield error, and outfield arm. That's unlike if you started him there in spring training, in which case he'll just gain experience at the position but might still suck. Tbh I've considered removing this program because I get that people want to choose the position so this feels bad, but if you can choose the position then it's just a better version of something already in the game. But if I remove the bonus to ratings that they get, then it's just the same thing as playing the player at the position in spring training, so it's kind of pointless. So to keep it in it's own niche it would need to stay as-is. That being said, with the new midterm emails in 26, you'll be able to see what position your staff chose for the player, and you can pull them out if they aren't performing well and you don't like the position.

But the ability to train a player in spring training is dialed way back with with recalc and development both on. Both on was the default setting for a long time for historical games without historical lineups.

Rather than restricting the ability of a human to select a position for a player to learn in ST I hope OOTP will restore it and expand the ability to computer controlled teams. It would be quite helpful for computer controlled teams in covering all positions.

I tried to train Reggie Smith in ST, CF/RF at the time, to play LF. His experience improved from 0 to 13. Real life players learn new positions based on team needs. And team needs for this team is for him to play LF.

I agree there should not be two ways to train a player for a new position. But as of now those of us who play with the old default of recalc and development both on are stuck with none.

[Pdubya64]

Thanks for answering Will, this helps a lot.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Will Beh

Not in 26; the problem I've been facing with this one is that if you could choose the position then it's basically the same as just starting your guy at that position in spring training (cause you can teach them any position in spring training already).

Not if both recalc and development are selected. And that was the previous default setting for historical play. Lots of people play that way.

In ST I got 1972 Reggie Smith to improve his LF experience from 0 to 13. In 62 regular season starts it went from 13 to 132.

I hope that the ability to train in ST is restored when the Dev Lab is off, and that the computer managers be given the same ability which they have never had.

[CH1MA3RA]

Originally Posted by Will Beh

Not in 26; the problem I've been facing with this one is that if you could choose the position then it's basically the same as just starting your guy at that position in spring training (cause you can teach them any position in spring training already). So what makes this program different is that, while you rely on your staff to pick the position, if it's a new area of the field then they will teach the player the basics of that position as well (unlike in spring training). I.e. if your player is an infielder with no outfield experience and they try him out in center, if it works out he'll gain outfield range, outfield error, and outfield arm. That's unlike if you started him there in spring training, in which case he'll just gain experience at the position but might still suck. Tbh I've considered removing this program because I get that people want to choose the position so this feels bad, but if you can choose the position then it's just a better version of something already in the game. But if I remove the bonus to ratings that they get, then it's just the same thing as playing the player at the position in spring training, so it's kind of pointless. So to keep it in it's own niche it would need to stay as-is. That being said, with the new midterm emails in 26, you'll be able to see what position your staff chose for the player, and you can pull them out if they aren't performing well and you don't like the position.

Perhaps there's a path to decouple learning infield/Outfield skills from the experience gain side of it. This could make playing in ST the primary way to realize the gains from the skills improvement.

After all, taking groundball drills and such doesn't really equate to gameplay experience.

One way to approach this is to reskin the "Learn New Position" programs as "Improve Infield Skills" or "Improve Outfield Skills" or "Improve Catching Skills".

These could result in a +/- skill gain effect but should also require actual playing time to apply those skills to learn a new position.

Hope that all makes sense

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Not if both recalc and development are selected. And that was the previous default setting for historical play. Lots of people play that way.

In ST I got 1972 Reggie Smith to improve his LF experience from 0 to 13. In 62 regular season starts it went from 13 to 132.

I hope that the ability to train in ST is restored when the Dev Lab is off, and that the computer managers be given the same ability which they have never had.

Turn off re-calc during Spring Training and get all the of effects and then turn it back on after Spring training. After all, re-calc does nothing throughout the season and only happens at the end of the the season. So, to fix your issue, disabled recalc for Spring Training and your issues are fixed. Sure, one small extra step, but it gives you everything you want. Matt has told you the reason your players are not training is because you have recalc on. So, disable it for a month and a half. It has NOTHING to do with the dev lab. Matt ALSO told you that as well.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by twins_34

Turn off re-calc during Spring Training and get all the of effects and then turn it back on after Spring training. After all, re-calc does nothing throughout the season and only happens at the end of the the season. So, to fix your issue, disabled recalc for Spring Training and your issues are fixed. Sure, one small extra step, but it gives you everything you want. Matt has told you the reason your players are not training is because you have recalc on. So, disable it for a month and a half. It has NOTHING to do with the dev lab. Matt ALSO told you that as well.

This is interesting idea. I may give this a try. Thanks.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by twins_34

Turn off re-calc during Spring Training and get all the of effects and then turn it back on after Spring training. After all, re-calc does nothing throughout the season and only happens at the end of the the season. So, to fix your issue, disabled recalc for Spring Training and your issues are fixed. Sure, one small extra step, but it gives you everything you want.

Matt has told you the reason your players are not training is because you have recalc on. So, disable it for a month and a half. It has NOTHING to do with the dev lab. Matt ALSO told you that as well.

Thank you for posting the suggestion. I tested it and it appears to work. I ran it again during ST in a real save and it again appears to work. Great idea.

I separated your post in the quote and want to comment on the second part. It's kind of skirting the truth. The issue I experienced isn't caused directly by the Dev Lab but as both Matt and Will stated there was a change made due to the introduction of the Dev Lab.

Also, it was completely unnecessary and inappropriate to post the second part. As a member of the beta team, a person who helped with the Dev Lab, and leader of the Wiki, your association with the company is such that you are voice of authority and represent the company in your posts.

People in such positions should not shout at other posters or seek arguments because the other posters are the customers. Garlon seems to understand this but its often lacking in other close associates of the company, including mods, who regularly mock posters.

Anyway, thanks again for the very valuable suggestion. I will now get back to my save, where thanks to your suggestion I was able in ST to teach Roberto Clemente to play LF for the twilight of his career.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Thank you for posting the suggestion. I tested it and it appears to work. I ran it again during ST in a real save and it again appears to work. Great idea.

I separated your post in the quote and want to comment on the second part. It's kind of skirting the truth. The issue I experienced isn't caused directly by the Dev Lab but as both Matt and Will stated there was a change made due to the introduction of the Dev Lab.

Also, it was completely unnecessary to post the second part. As a member of the beta team, a person who helped with the Dev Lab, and leader of the Wiki, your association with the company is such that you are voice of authority and represent the company in your posts.

People in such positions should not shout at other posters or seek arguments because the other posters are the customers. Garlon seems to understand this but its often lacking in other close associates of the company, including mods, who regularly mock posters.

Anyway, thanks again for the very valuable suggestion. I will now get back to my save, where thanks to your suggestion I was able in ST to teach Roberto Clemente to play LF for the twilight of his career.

Did you see any of the AI controlled teams make use of the opportunity to teach new positions?

[Brad K]

No. Didn't look. I believe they didn't before and I assume there's no change.

However I give another advantage to computer controlled teams that may compensate to a degree. I play with historical minor league players and there is an ample supply of 2.5 star and occasionally 3 star career minor leaguers who can play multiple positions. I don't allow any career minor leaguers on my 25 man but of course the computer controlled teams use them.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Brad K

No. Didn't look. I believe they didn't before and I assume there's no change.

However I give another advantage to computer controlled teams that may compensate to a degree. I play with historical minor league players and there is an ample supply of 2.5 star and occasionally 3 star career minor leaguers who can play multiple positions. I don't allow any career minor leaguers on my 25 man but of course the computer controlled teams use them.

And I'm sure a great share of the historical minor league players hit as well if not better than Reggie Smith, or even a really old Roberto Clemente

[Brad K]

The career minor league position players who make MLB teams tend to be good defenders who walk a lot. Less often they are poor defenders with mediocre BAs who hit HRs. . Luckymann ran into a situation where something around 20% of the SPs in a save were career minor leaguers. So there's some talent to be had.

Anyway, my point is actually that they're better than the historical players a computer team could have. It's not so much about them being stars as it is about the decent everyday players and the first guy off the bench.

I wish there was a "help computer" switch.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by Brad K

I separated your post in the quote and want to comment on the second part. It's kind of skirting the truth. The issue I experienced isn't caused directly by the Dev Lab but as both Matt and Will stated there was a change made due to the introduction of the Dev Lab.

Please quote where either of them said this. Matt said, and it was posted to you many times that the reason you are having the issues was with recalc and recalc only. I even asked Matt what the cause was an he stated, very clearly, it had nothing to do with the dev lab and was based off of having recalc on only. But, if you can link where either of them said this, I would love to read it because both of them said that your issue is based off just having recalc on and recalc on alone. It is a side effect of recalc being enabled.

Originally Posted by Brad K

Also, it was completely unnecessary and inappropriate to post the second part. As a member of the beta team, a person who helped with the Dev Lab, and leader of the Wiki, your association with the company is such that you are voice of authority and represent the company in your posts.

I have nothing to do with the company EXCEPT for volunteering my time to help with the game. I am NOT employed by them, I am NOT in change of the Wiki, that is erik.ootp who is in charge of the Wiki. I do not have ANY authority and I do not represent the company. Also, there are many people that helped work on the Development Lab, I just became the person that wrote the wiki page on the Dev lab, nothing more and nothing less. Quit trying to make me to be someone I am not. I am not an employee of OOTP nor do I represent them. So please quit putting me on some kind of pedestal. Matt, Lukas, and Will are the voices of OOTP and represent them and you choose to ignore what they have said to you and seem to make up things they have said to you which make no sense. Matt has stated at least 2 times, that your only issue with development of players positions, during Spring Training, is because RECALC is enabled. It has nothing, and I will repeat this over and over, to do with the development lab and Will even has told you this! He even just said the reason you can't pick and choose was because

Originally Posted by Will Beh

the problem I've been facing with this one is that if you could choose the position then it's basically the same as just starting your guy at that position in spring training (cause you can teach them any position in spring training already). So what makes this program different is that, while you rely on your staff to pick the position, if it's a new area of the field then they will teach the player the basics of that position as well (unlike in spring training).

He said that THE ONLY DIFFERENCE is they get the position ratings to HELP them with that new position, as in, if they are a 3b, ss, 2b, and they learn OF they will get OF range, OF error, and OF arm Boost/Bonus/whatever you want to call it, which does not happen in Spring Training. He never once said that

Because you have the development lab enabled your ability to train positions in Spring Training have been reduced

However Matt HAS stated

Because you have recalc enabled, that does slow down your ability to train players at positions

and now with you using my suggestion and it working, proves what Matt has stated IS IN FACT true and this can now be put to rest that the ONLY reason you had the issues you were having with training players during Spring Training was ONLY because you had recalc enabled. So please stop now Brad. You now have a work around to have the best of both worlds so put this to rest already and quite trying to make it linked to the dev lab. (Because you can keep the dev lab enabled and just disable recalc and it will work and you just proved that) Or if you did disable the dev lab, keep it enabled and you will have the SAME outcome if you ONLY disable recalc.

I mean to this point, I honestly do not know if you are just trolling or what the deal is.

[Brad K]

Twins, you devised a solution and I appreciate it. Why do you continue to argue about how the situation occurred? You could have been the good guy with the solution, end of story. That's how someone who is associated with the company would treat the customers.

In a previous discussion where I showed recalc did not reset learned positions to zero I left you a way out by posting "Perhaps you've erroneously interpreted decreases due to decline in skill ratings as being due to recalc resetting learned positions." I thought you'd appreciate the conciliatory approach and respond in kind.

Concerning you being in charge of the Wiki, its impossible to read your Reddit posts and conclude you aren't.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Did you see any of the AI controlled teams make use of the opportunity to teach new positions?

While I don't see computer controlled teams training for other positions I haven't really looked. I assume it's not because I see things like veteran SS and CF who can't field anymore still playing those positions because they don't know any other.

However a computer manager will take a player who has slight real world experience and thus a rating, although low, and play him there during the regular season. He gets better with practice.

The instances that come to mind immediately are computer teams putting Hank Aaron and Tony Oliva in CF and Rico Carty at C.

[Rain King]

There is a Historical Setting checkbox called "Base player roles/positions on" with the two possible options being "Real Life Stats" and "AI evaluation".

"Real Life Stats" is the default in most of the default historical modes. I would not expect the game to be training players at new positions if that option is selected.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Rain King

There is a Historical Setting checkbox called "Base player roles/positions on" with the two possible options being "Real Life Stats" and "AI evaluation".

"Real Life Stats" is the default in most of the default historical modes. I would not expect the game to be training players at new positions if that option is selected.

Interesting theory. I sometimes overlook that setting. I don't recall how it was set when I collected my data. I suspect real life stats but don't know for sure.