Feedback Wanted / OOTP Marketing

battists · 07-29-2009, 11:07 PM

Hi folks,

Curious to get some feedback. We don't sell an enormous # of copies of OOTP, and of course, the name of the game is trying to sell more. We also don't have any staff with marketing background, or time to spend marketing, really. We also have extremely limited marketing/advertising funds.

I have a theory that there is "baseball fan spectrum," with casual fans on one end, and "geeky" fans on the other end. OOTP sits squarely at one end. We do an adequate job each year of "preaching to the choir," by which I mean selling the game to the avowed baseball geeks. Sorta like this:

I believe that fantasy baseball players range from fairly casual to extremely geeky. I read an article recently that said that in one particular year, an estimated 6 million people played fantasy baseball. As you can imagine, that's several orders of magnitude beyond our annual sales. I'm of the strong (and totally unscientific) belief that the vast majority of these fantasy baseball players simply have never heard of OOTP.

I likewise believe that if we could simply get OOTP in front of more fantasy baseballers, we could generate a lot of sales, possibly multiples of our current sales. Anecdotally, we hear all the time, "I wish I'd known about this game years ago!"

So, I'm just curious to hear thoughts from the crowd, especially in answer to this question:

How can we get OOTP in front of more people, with fantasy baseball players as an "ideal target," but without big advertising expenditure, and without requiring a lot of man-hours?

Thanks for your ideas!

Steve

JWay · 07-29-2009, 11:20 PM

Twitter is such an untapped potential. Make it work for you. Its basically free advertising, offer free games to 20 people who mention OOTP or something in a daily drawing, not quite as cool as an ipod or macbook, but you know what I mean. If you spend a day adding people who mention fantasy baseball, some will look.

dlockz · 07-29-2009, 11:29 PM

Well if you want to attract fantasy leagers. Offer free fantasy leagues on your site or low cost fantasy leagues. Not sure of the cost expenditure but should be fairly low cost.

Questdog · 07-29-2009, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

How can we get OOTP in front of more people, with fantasy baseball players as an "ideal target," but without big advertising expenditure, and without requiring a lot of man-hours?

If you ever start catering to 'casual' baseball fans at the expense of us 'geeks', I will come find you.....

thamolas · 07-30-2009, 12:29 AM

Since I stopped playing as a teenager, I don't even like baseball. However, I love strategy sims and OOTP is a (potentially) great game in this regard. Maybe part of the problem is targeting strictly baseball geeks.

hitmanwa · 07-30-2009, 12:54 AM

Die-hard 80's fan. Grew up on the stuff and stopped watching in the late 90s. OOTP made me care about Baseball once again. Even watch it on TV like I used to back when I was a heartbroken Astros fan back when I was in my pre-teens. Personally I think the fantasy baseball fans would jump on this given the opportunity. The twitter idea has a lot of potential. Otherwise, all I can think of is join some Fantasy Leagues using the OOTPX name with the link in your sig or something like that. May light a forest fire, may not. *shrugs*

Hasta la vista pelota · 07-30-2009, 01:40 AM

Has anyone done a study on whether fantasy baseball players would be interested in such games? Or is it just an assumption?

Personally, I've found those to be separate audiences with separate interests. That is, fantasy players may not be really interested in sports sims. That includes my small circle and me personally. I tried a Rotisserie league for the first time this year and grew bored with it about two months in.

Small sample, I know, but I wonder if anyone has studied this.

Andreas Raht · 07-30-2009, 07:14 AM

Most people find us through Google, searching for "baseball games". A good Google page rank would help us. To get a good page rank, it's important that many other sites link to our site (www.ootpdevelopments.com/ootp). So, anybody who links to our site, helps us

VARoadstter · 07-30-2009, 07:56 AM

If the game offered a way to support fantasy leagues, that might be interesting (I'm in four this year and winning three of them). It would mean having to find a way to d/l current stats and of course you'd need to support the myriad scoring systems used for fantasy baseball. On the plus side, you have lots of good statistical reports. Maybe add in some ability to compare two or more players to help evaluate trade potential.

mrcoach00 · 07-30-2009, 08:11 AM

I'm not sure how much you have $$$-wise set aside for marketing, but this time of year a banner on www.mlbtraderumors.com could be worth its weight in gold.

The site started as a one-man blog about two years ago. The lead guy has since quit his "real-world" job and hired others because the site has really taken off. I would guess that the site draws those that fall into the right-hand side of your baseball spectrum.

Good luck!

ssstump · 07-30-2009, 08:59 AM

I am assuming banners on MLB.com , etc, are out of the budget range, so...

Maybe try small 'niche markets'.

For instance, one strength of your game is historical play. Try a banner on a baseball card collector's site. Customize it to fit the crowd. For instance, a card pic of Sandy Koufax or something like that.

Every minor league team has a website and they operate on budgets WAY below the bigs. Explore those.

Just my dopey ideas.

Wrathchild · 07-30-2009, 09:01 AM

I would think that banner ads on fantasy baseball sites would be a good way to attract attention. That's how I sometimes find out about things I might be interested in, i.e. seeing a banner for something when on a website of interest.

ssstump · 07-30-2009, 09:05 AM

Trade 'merchandise' for advertising.

For instance, on a large fantasy baseball site, make a deal with the owner to offer 25 free games in a contest held on their site. They get increased buzz and happy customers, and you get exposure.

TribeFanInNC · 07-30-2009, 09:09 AM

I've always thought that fantasy baseball was a natural progression to OOTP. In some regards, I liken OOTP to fantasy baseball, except that you don't have to wait around for the players to play the game. But I agree with the sentiment that the audiences are not necessarily the same. I've floated the idea around my recurring roto league, but nobody seemed to be that interested.

I guess to sum up my point: I use roto as a mechanism to watch more real baseball and make watching more exciting (and make fun of my friends), but I use OOTP to play computer games. The audience may not indeed be that similar.

Maybe OOTP needs to banner on gaming sites more than baseball sites.

BTW: kudos to Steve on the good baseball fan spectrum analogy

Kelric · 07-30-2009, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcoach00

I'm not sure how much you have $$$-wise set aside for marketing, but this time of year a banner on www.mlbtraderumors.com could be worth its weight in gold.

The site started as a one-man blog about two years ago. The lead guy has since quit his "real-world" job and hired others because the site has really taken off. I would guess that the site draws those that fall into the right-hand side of your baseball spectrum.

Good luck!

I was going to mention that as well. 1.3 million pageviews yesterday for Tim at MLBTR.

Cryomaniac · 07-30-2009, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssstump

For instance, one strength of your game is historical play. Try a banner on a baseball card collector's site. Customize it to fit the crowd. For instance, a card pic of Sandy Koufax or something like that.

That's a cool idea.

Malleus Dei · 07-30-2009, 09:55 AM

Your market really isn't fantasy baseball players. I know a large group of them, and none of them have shown any long-term interest in OOTP or even BM or a console game. They like the ties to real baseball too much.

The console audience is lost from the start.

So what you are left with are hard-core baseball gamers and hard-core strategy gamers (and calling that audience "geeks" is demeaning, Steve, many of them are not geeks). There's your potential customer base: people who like extremely complicated baseball strategy games and people who like extremely complicated strategy games of any kind and who will play a baseball game - or, for another example, a soccer game - even though they are not baseball or soccer fans, but simply because the game is rich, detailed, offers numerous opportunities for significant decisions and rewards good decision-making.

Therefore you guys need to be selling OOTP as two things:

1. The most complex computer baseball game of all. Get some kind of slick advertising phrase behind that to tie to the game, like "OOTP, the king of baseball computer games" only better.

2. A complex and feature-rich strategy game. Puresim forged a relationship with Matrix Games, one of the biggest online marketers of strategy games, which helped sell games to new customers; maybe you should look in to affiliating yourself to either them or, say, Shrapnel Games or such, as that will get you strategy gamer eyes on your product. Or find some other way to do that.

But going after fantasy gamers will not pay off. They don't do and don't want to do complicated games like OOTP.

Phillies_WFC_2008 · 07-30-2009, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcoach00

I'm not sure how much you have $$$-wise set aside for marketing, but this time of year a banner on www.mlbtraderumors.com could be worth its weight in gold.

The site started as a one-man blog about two years ago. The lead guy has since quit his "real-world" job and hired others because the site has really taken off. I would guess that the site draws those that fall into the right-hand side of your baseball spectrum.

Good luck!

I would think MLBTR would be a great opportunity for you guys. Obviously your budget may not allow it, but it is a definite place where baseball "geeks" go. Especially if you read the comments, everyone there seems to know better than the GM of their teams, so what better way to show that knowledge off than OOTP.

playball335 · 07-30-2009, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrathchild

I would think that banner ads on fantasy baseball sites would be a good way to attract attention. That's how I sometimes find out about things I might be interested in, i.e. seeing a banner for something when on a website of interest.

I agree. Placing adds on fantasy sites and "baseball" sites would be great, if the cost was reasonable.

I know many don't favor it, but if we are talking strictly selling copies of OOTP, adding some sort of 2D/3D graphical representation of the action would take the game a long way. Picture MLB Front office manager from 2Ksports (or MLB The Show) graphics with OOTP's engine, depth, customization...(imagine creating our own ballparks ala Earl Weaver) Wow!

Of course being able to "port" this type of game to the consoles would open up another market all together.

Just my 2c's

kingcharlesxii · 07-30-2009, 10:44 AM

Three things I'd really look into (I do have somewhat of an advertising background):

1) As mentioned above, a better 2D/3D engine goes a long way to attract casual gamers.

2) Maybe a "lite" interface - the game is still rather daunting for newcomers.

3) Definitely offer free giveaways to sites - the more people you get playing the game, the more likely they're recommend to their friends and so on. Word of mouth is the best advertising.

4) This might not be feasible, but it's a huge advantage to have a box in the store. How many people came to OOTP through Season Ticket Baseball? I'm betting it was a lot.

5) Facebook/Twitter might be worth looking into. For a product like this, I'd say Facebook might be better because you can provide more info than Twitter.

6) Advertise, advertise, advertise. It seems like a lot of money, no doubt, but if you spend those dollars correctly it will return a lot more than you spend. If you're going after the fantasy baseball players, advertise on the sites those people go to.

7) And finally: if you're going after fantasy baseball players, those players will want to play a "real" league. It's very important the default rosters are ready to go at game release and the game is released by the start of the season. Those fantasy baseball players won't want to buy a game in June/July, unlike the fictional/historical gamers. Their interest in baseball runs from spring until football season starts.

You might want to even consider a lighter MLBish-only release, maybe disable a lot of the custom config features but offer at a lower price.

Hope this helps.

07-29-2009, 11:07 PM	#1
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506 Blog Entries: 7	Feedback Wanted / OOTP Marketing Hi folks, Curious to get some feedback. We don't sell an enormous # of copies of OOTP, and of course, the name of the game is trying to sell more. We also don't have any staff with marketing background, or time to spend marketing, really. We also have extremely limited marketing/advertising funds. I have a theory that there is "baseball fan spectrum," with casual fans on one end, and "geeky" fans on the other end. OOTP sits squarely at one end. We do an adequate job each year of "preaching to the choir," by which I mean selling the game to the avowed baseball geeks. Sorta like this: I believe that fantasy baseball players range from fairly casual to extremely geeky. I read an article recently that said that in one particular year, an estimated 6 million people played fantasy baseball. As you can imagine, that's several orders of magnitude beyond our annual sales. I'm of the strong (and totally unscientific) belief that the vast majority of these fantasy baseball players simply have never heard of OOTP. I likewise believe that if we could simply get OOTP in front of more fantasy baseballers, we could generate a lot of sales, possibly multiples of our current sales. Anecdotally, we hear all the time, "I wish I'd known about this game years ago!" So, I'm just curious to hear thoughts from the crowd, especially in answer to this question: How can we get OOTP in front of more people, with fantasy baseball players as an "ideal target," but without big advertising expenditure, and without requiring a lot of man-hours? Thanks for your ideas! Steve __________________ Come check out my dynasty report, Funky Times! Last edited by battists; 07-29-2009 at 11:09 PM.

07-30-2009, 07:14 AM	#8
Andreas Raht Administrator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hollern/Stade/Germany Posts: 8,992	Most people find us through Google, searching for "baseball games". A good Google page rank would help us. To get a good page rank, it's important that many other sites link to our site (www.ootpdevelopments.com/ootp). So, anybody who links to our site, helps us __________________ Andreas Raht andreas@ootpdevelopments.com Out of the Park Developments

07-30-2009, 09:09 AM	#14
TribeFanInNC Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,019	I've always thought that fantasy baseball was a natural progression to OOTP. In some regards, I liken OOTP to fantasy baseball, except that you don't have to wait around for the players to play the game. But I agree with the sentiment that the audiences are not necessarily the same. I've floated the idea around my recurring roto league, but nobody seemed to be that interested. I guess to sum up my point: I use roto as a mechanism to watch more real baseball and make watching more exciting (and make fun of my friends), but I use OOTP to play computer games. The audience may not indeed be that similar. Maybe OOTP needs to banner on gaming sites more than baseball sites. BTW: kudos to Steve on the good baseball fan spectrum analogy Last edited by TribeFanInNC; 07-30-2009 at 09:10 AM.

07-29-2009, 11:20 PM	#2
JWay Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Sioux Falls, SD Posts: 5,021 Blog Entries: 3	Twitter is such an untapped potential. Make it work for you. Its basically free advertising, offer free games to 20 people who mention OOTP or something in a daily drawing, not quite as cool as an ipod or macbook, but you know what I mean. If you spend a day adding people who mention fantasy baseball, some will look.

07-29-2009, 11:29 PM	#3
dlockz Bat Boy Join Date: May 2002 Location: lakeland Posts: 17	Well if you want to attract fantasy leagers. Offer free fantasy leagues on your site or low cost fantasy leagues. Not sure of the cost expenditure but should be fairly low cost.

07-30-2009, 12:29 AM	#5
thamolas Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 91	Since I stopped playing as a teenager, I don't even like baseball. However, I love strategy sims and OOTP is a (potentially) great game in this regard. Maybe part of the problem is targeting strictly baseball geeks.

07-30-2009, 12:54 AM	#6
hitmanwa Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 41	Die-hard 80's fan. Grew up on the stuff and stopped watching in the late 90s. OOTP made me care about Baseball once again. Even watch it on TV like I used to back when I was a heartbroken Astros fan back when I was in my pre-teens. Personally I think the fantasy baseball fans would jump on this given the opportunity. The twitter idea has a lot of potential. Otherwise, all I can think of is join some Fantasy Leagues using the OOTPX name with the link in your sig or something like that. May light a forest fire, may not. shrugs

07-30-2009, 01:40 AM	#7
Hasta la vista pelota Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 137	Has anyone done a study on whether fantasy baseball players would be interested in such games? Or is it just an assumption? Personally, I've found those to be separate audiences with separate interests. That is, fantasy players may not be really interested in sports sims. That includes my small circle and me personally. I tried a Rotisserie league for the first time this year and grew bored with it about two months in. Small sample, I know, but I wonder if anyone has studied this.

07-30-2009, 07:56 AM	#9
VARoadstter Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 211	If the game offered a way to support fantasy leagues, that might be interesting (I'm in four this year and winning three of them). It would mean having to find a way to d/l current stats and of course you'd need to support the myriad scoring systems used for fantasy baseball. On the plus side, you have lots of good statistical reports. Maybe add in some ability to compare two or more players to help evaluate trade potential.

07-30-2009, 08:11 AM	#10
mrcoach00 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Peoria, IL Posts: 217	I'm not sure how much you have $$$-wise set aside for marketing, but this time of year a banner on www.mlbtraderumors.com could be worth its weight in gold. The site started as a one-man blog about two years ago. The lead guy has since quit his "real-world" job and hired others because the site has really taken off. I would guess that the site draws those that fall into the right-hand side of your baseball spectrum. Good luck!

07-30-2009, 08:59 AM	#11
ssstump Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 57	I am assuming banners on MLB.com , etc, are out of the budget range, so... Maybe try small 'niche markets'. For instance, one strength of your game is historical play. Try a banner on a baseball card collector's site. Customize it to fit the crowd. For instance, a card pic of Sandy Koufax or something like that. Every minor league team has a website and they operate on budgets WAY below the bigs. Explore those. Just my dopey ideas.

07-30-2009, 09:01 AM	#12
Wrathchild Banned Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 421 Infractions: 0/3 (3)	I would think that banner ads on fantasy baseball sites would be a good way to attract attention. That's how I sometimes find out about things I might be interested in, i.e. seeing a banner for something when on a website of interest.

07-30-2009, 09:05 AM	#13
ssstump Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 57	Trade 'merchandise' for advertising. For instance, on a large fantasy baseball site, make a deal with the owner to offer 25 free games in a contest held on their site. They get increased buzz and happy customers, and you get exposure.

07-30-2009, 10:44 AM	#20
kingcharlesxii Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,730	Three things I'd really look into (I do have somewhat of an advertising background): 1) As mentioned above, a better 2D/3D engine goes a long way to attract casual gamers. 2) Maybe a "lite" interface - the game is still rather daunting for newcomers. 3) Definitely offer free giveaways to sites - the more people you get playing the game, the more likely they're recommend to their friends and so on. Word of mouth is the best advertising. 4) This might not be feasible, but it's a huge advantage to have a box in the store. How many people came to OOTP through Season Ticket Baseball? I'm betting it was a lot. 5) Facebook/Twitter might be worth looking into. For a product like this, I'd say Facebook might be better because you can provide more info than Twitter. 6) Advertise, advertise, advertise. It seems like a lot of money, no doubt, but if you spend those dollars correctly it will return a lot more than you spend. If you're going after the fantasy baseball players, advertise on the sites those people go to. 7) And finally: if you're going after fantasy baseball players, those players will want to play a "real" league. It's very important the default rosters are ready to go at game release and the game is released by the start of the season. Those fantasy baseball players won't want to buy a game in June/July, unlike the fictional/historical gamers. Their interest in baseball runs from spring until football season starts. You might want to even consider a lighter MLBish-only release, maybe disable a lot of the custom config features but offer at a lower price. Hope this helps.