My Relief Pitcher Experiment

TNIRISHFAN · 04-27-2015, 01:54 PM

So I did a Fantasy Draft 2015 real MLB teams with fictional player league where I knew going in that I was going to only use Relief Pitchers.

I am General Manager only, but I maintain control over the pitching rotation. I have a hard 40 pitch count for the whole franchise and I have a quick hook for both starters and relievers. I also have my pinch hit for pitchers on the highest setting.

The Macro picture is this: surprising winning record the first year, wildcard loss the second, best record in baseball loss in divisional series third, loss in World Series fourth and World Series Sweep in the 5th season. On a side note, in the 5th year my owner died halfway through the season and his son is a jerk. We won the World Series and I have my team signed through the next year, but the son has cut my budget even though we made money during the world series run.

A few specifics:

I run 3 "starters" and 10 in the bullpen. When I have starters I usually run 12 pitchers, but needed to have more arms to run this experiment. When I drafted my team I drafted position players for the first 12 positions and then drafted 13 straight relievers. Everyone is set to middle reliever with a secondary role of emergency starting pitcher.

When I drafted my position players I made sure that I had a good defense. The key to my pitching staff was high stuff/movement and high groundball tendency.

If a pitcher was injured more than 4 days, he went on the DL and a minor league guy was called up. I tried to have a house rule of never calling up a guy who had been down for less than 10 days, but I'm not sure how well I stuck to that.

Pitchers did not break down at a higher rate even though most of them spent the year tired.

If a guy had a high ERA, I would dive into the metrics of that to see what was going on, if it was high BABIP I would let it ride, if not I would rotate him into the minors pretty quickly. One thing this will really drive you away from is worrying about pitcher wins and losses, your starters won’t have any wins and occasionally you will have a reliever end up with over 30. Saves also mean nothing because anyone can get one. Overall my team ERA was in the top 5 of the National League most years.

I am able to afford a much higher payroll for position players because my pitching staff is inexpensive. Most of my drafts are easier to sign because I am not signing the big money starting pitchers. It’s relatively easy to stack the minors with a bunch of big arm high groundball % pitchers. This makes it easier to let the ones wanting big money walk.

I really like the way this has worked out, I think it would be harder to do if you start with a set roster, but I think that having the fantasy draft allowed me to set the whole franchise up to be prepared to make this work. I like the strategy so well that I am going to continue to do it and play this team

'94 EXPOS · 04-27-2015, 02:15 PM

Full marks for creativity!

I am surprised that pitchers did not break down. What were your highs for innings pitched and games pitched?

What kind of stamina did most of these guys have that you selected?

Any way you can put a screen shot of the team pitcher stats up. Would love to see it.

It will be interesting to see what the game does contract demand wise when your better pitchers come due.

Good stuff

RchW · 04-27-2015, 02:33 PM

How were wins distributed?

TNIRISHFAN · 04-27-2015, 03:02 PM

Guys range from 18 stamina down to 2. 18 stamina guy has a fastball and a slider, probably why he is a reliever.

My better pitchers wanted around 8 million a year for 5 years at age 32. I let them walk. I didn't want to trade them in the middle of the pennant run so I let them get to the end of the year and let them hit free agency. 8-10 million a year seems pretty standard for these guys. IF I had a bigger payroll I would keep more on, but I like resigning the 4-6 million dollar guys or rolling the next guys up from the minors.

'94 EXPOS · 04-28-2015, 08:27 AM

I love it! Very Maddonesque.

Maybe the developers can add an option to rotation options

5 man? 4 man? 3 man? Communist?

I toyed with the thought of a similar plan but not to the same extent (my 5th starter spot). What made me think of it was the wonky OOTP Preseason predictions that had two of my better relievers among the '10 best'. They both were predicted to pitch 170-200 innings and win 15+ games.

I play as GM and Manager but only to the point that I set my rosters and daily lineups.

Can you use 7 day lineups in GM only?

If you can, you would not have to follow your 3 man 'rotation' and you would be able to choose each pitcher manually every day.

Rain King · 04-28-2015, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNIRISHFAN

I tried to have a house rule of never calling up a guy who had been down for less than 10 days, but I'm not sure how well I stuck to that.

Interesting experiment, but why this house rule? In MLB you can call a guy up under the 10 days as long as he is replacing a player that went on the DL.

TNIRISHFAN · 04-28-2015, 09:13 AM

I've never used 7 day lineups before. I generally like for the Manager to do most of the lineup changes. I usually sim from major event to major event and take care of roster changes for injuries. I had to take more control of the rotation to make this work obviously.

If you run as GM/Manager you could use your best pitcher at any given moment, instead of just making sure you have a good stable of arms so that the Manager has a good choice at all times.

On the house rule, I meant that it was only for when I was just sending a guy down. Didn't want people to think I had used the minors as an extended bullpen to keep the guys fresh.

jlech1805 · 04-28-2015, 11:08 AM

Interesting Experiment.

I've done something similar before with surprising success:

5 Starters pitch limit between 80-90 Pitches.

7-8 relievers all as specialists with pitch count at 30.

I've also done 6 starters, 70-80 pitch count, with starters available in relief.

The biggest benefit I've seen is a decline in injuries. I've done this is ~7 seasons and have only seen 3 injuries of longer than 30 days to a pitcher (using High for injury setting)

TomVeal · 04-28-2015, 11:49 AM

Frank Foster won 21 games without a single start! I'm sure that nothing like that has ever happened in the real world.

Leo_The_Lip · 04-28-2015, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomVeal

Frank Foster won 21 games without a single start! I'm sure that nothing like that has ever happened in the real world.

Elroy Face came close. 18-1 in 1959

ezpkns34 · 04-28-2015, 12:15 PM

How did you decide who your 3 "starters" would be?

Highest stamina? Most pitches? Zodiac sign?

Harry_BallSack · 04-28-2015, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ezpkns34

How did you decide who your 3 "starters" would be?

Highest stamina? Most pitches? Zodiac sign?

Taurus only.

TNIRISHFAN · 04-28-2015, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ezpkns34

How did you decide who your 3 "starters" would be?

Highest stamina? Most pitches? Zodiac sign?

I did pick the guys with the highest stamina. They seem to be the only pitchers that the manager lets get to 40 pitches.

Nzsftbl · 04-29-2015, 02:29 AM

Reminds me of this...

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post2157516

Maybe one day I'll try this as well

frangipard · 04-29-2015, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomVeal

Frank Foster won 21 games without a single start! I'm sure that nothing like that has ever happened in the real world.

And Tim Davis went 0-10 despite being one of the best pitchers on the team, thanks to the archaic rule of needing 5 innings for a win. And that's one of the reasons something like this wouldn't fly IRL ... while it might well make sense from a theoretical strategy standpoint, highly competitive athletes aren't going to like being put into what is literally a no-win situation.

Hasta la vista pelota · 04-29-2015, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNIRISHFAN

Pitchers did not break down at a higher rate even though most of them spent the year tired.

Maybe Markus & Co. will look into tweaking the system a bit so this is not the case going forward. I really doubt real-life would work this well if any organization had the guts to try it.

Still, this was a very useful experiment and I can see it taking hold in many online leagues.

Hrycaj · 04-30-2015, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNIRISHFAN

I run 3 "starters" and 10 in the bullpen. When I have starters I usually run 12 pitchers, but needed to have more arms to run this experiment. When I drafted my team I drafted position players for the first 12 positions and then drafted 13 straight relievers. Everyone is set to middle reliever with a secondary role of emergency starting pitcher.

So if you have a 40 pitch hard count on everybody why the 3 man rotation? Couldn't you leave your rotation at 5 and get the same results?

Cool experiment.

Assos · 04-30-2015, 03:33 PM

Your box scores on the pitching side are going to look like a Spring Training box score. 40 pitch count, hard limit, ouch!

conception · 04-30-2015, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frangipard

And Tim Davis went 0-10 despite being one of the best pitchers on the team, thanks to the archaic rule of needing 5 innings for a win. And that's one of the reasons something like this wouldn't fly IRL ... while it might well make sense from a theoretical strategy standpoint, highly competitive athletes aren't going to like being put into what is literally a no-win situation.

I'm not sure a relief pitcher really cares that much about wins, I think ERA and saves are more important.

Leo_The_Lip · 05-01-2015, 11:46 AM

And today brings a Hardball Times article about Elroy Face:

Face Time ?59: An Unusual Pitcher, an Unusual Year ? The Hardball Times

04-27-2015, 01:54 PM	#1
TNIRISHFAN Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Little Rock Posts: 62	My Relief Pitcher Experiment So I did a Fantasy Draft 2015 real MLB teams with fictional player league where I knew going in that I was going to only use Relief Pitchers. I am General Manager only, but I maintain control over the pitching rotation. I have a hard 40 pitch count for the whole franchise and I have a quick hook for both starters and relievers. I also have my pinch hit for pitchers on the highest setting. The Macro picture is this: surprising winning record the first year, wildcard loss the second, best record in baseball loss in divisional series third, loss in World Series fourth and World Series Sweep in the 5th season. On a side note, in the 5th year my owner died halfway through the season and his son is a jerk. We won the World Series and I have my team signed through the next year, but the son has cut my budget even though we made money during the world series run. A few specifics: I run 3 "starters" and 10 in the bullpen. When I have starters I usually run 12 pitchers, but needed to have more arms to run this experiment. When I drafted my team I drafted position players for the first 12 positions and then drafted 13 straight relievers. Everyone is set to middle reliever with a secondary role of emergency starting pitcher. When I drafted my position players I made sure that I had a good defense. The key to my pitching staff was high stuff/movement and high groundball tendency. If a pitcher was injured more than 4 days, he went on the DL and a minor league guy was called up. I tried to have a house rule of never calling up a guy who had been down for less than 10 days, but I'm not sure how well I stuck to that. Pitchers did not break down at a higher rate even though most of them spent the year tired. If a guy had a high ERA, I would dive into the metrics of that to see what was going on, if it was high BABIP I would let it ride, if not I would rotate him into the minors pretty quickly. One thing this will really drive you away from is worrying about pitcher wins and losses, your starters won’t have any wins and occasionally you will have a reliever end up with over 30. Saves also mean nothing because anyone can get one. Overall my team ERA was in the top 5 of the National League most years. I am able to afford a much higher payroll for position players because my pitching staff is inexpensive. Most of my drafts are easier to sign because I am not signing the big money starting pitchers. It’s relatively easy to stack the minors with a bunch of big arm high groundball % pitchers. This makes it easier to let the ones wanting big money walk. I really like the way this has worked out, I think it would be harder to do if you start with a set roster, but I think that having the fantasy draft allowed me to set the whole franchise up to be prepared to make this work. I like the strategy so well that I am going to continue to do it and play this team

04-27-2015, 02:33 PM	#3
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	How were wins distributed? __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

04-27-2015, 03:02 PM	#4
TNIRISHFAN Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Little Rock Posts: 62	Here is my last years pitching stats. Guys range from 18 stamina down to 2. 18 stamina guy has a fastball and a slider, probably why he is a reliever. My better pitchers wanted around 8 million a year for 5 years at age 32. I let them walk. I didn't want to trade them in the middle of the pennant run so I let them get to the end of the year and let them hit free agency. 8-10 million a year seems pretty standard for these guys. IF I had a bigger payroll I would keep more on, but I like resigning the 4-6 million dollar guys or rolling the next guys up from the minors. Attached Images

05-01-2015, 11:46 AM	#20
Leo_The_Lip All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,808	And today brings a Hardball Times article about Elroy Face: Face Time ?59: An Unusual Pitcher, an Unusual Year ? The Hardball Times __________________ "My name will live forever" - Anonymous

04-27-2015, 02:15 PM	#2
'94 EXPOS Major Leagues Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 318	Full marks for creativity! I am surprised that pitchers did not break down. What were your highs for innings pitched and games pitched? What kind of stamina did most of these guys have that you selected? Any way you can put a screen shot of the team pitcher stats up. Would love to see it. It will be interesting to see what the game does contract demand wise when your better pitchers come due. Good stuff

04-28-2015, 08:27 AM	#5
'94 EXPOS Major Leagues Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 318	I love it! Very Maddonesque. Maybe the developers can add an option to rotation options 5 man? 4 man? 3 man? Communist? I toyed with the thought of a similar plan but not to the same extent (my 5th starter spot). What made me think of it was the wonky OOTP Preseason predictions that had two of my better relievers among the '10 best'. They both were predicted to pitch 170-200 innings and win 15+ games. I play as GM and Manager but only to the point that I set my rosters and daily lineups. Can you use 7 day lineups in GM only? If you can, you would not have to follow your 3 man 'rotation' and you would be able to choose each pitcher manually every day.

04-28-2015, 09:13 AM	#7
TNIRISHFAN Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Little Rock Posts: 62	I've never used 7 day lineups before. I generally like for the Manager to do most of the lineup changes. I usually sim from major event to major event and take care of roster changes for injuries. I had to take more control of the rotation to make this work obviously. If you run as GM/Manager you could use your best pitcher at any given moment, instead of just making sure you have a good stable of arms so that the Manager has a good choice at all times. On the house rule, I meant that it was only for when I was just sending a guy down. Didn't want people to think I had used the minors as an extended bullpen to keep the guys fresh.

04-28-2015, 11:08 AM	#8
jlech1805 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 51	Interesting Experiment. I've done something similar before with surprising success: 5 Starters pitch limit between 80-90 Pitches. 7-8 relievers all as specialists with pitch count at 30. I've also done 6 starters, 70-80 pitch count, with starters available in relief. The biggest benefit I've seen is a decline in injuries. I've done this is ~7 seasons and have only seen 3 injuries of longer than 30 days to a pitcher (using High for injury setting)

04-28-2015, 11:49 AM	#9
TomVeal All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Spanaway, Washington Posts: 1,253	Frank Foster won 21 games without a single start! I'm sure that nothing like that has ever happened in the real world.

04-28-2015, 12:15 PM	#11
ezpkns34 All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 753	How did you decide who your 3 "starters" would be? Highest stamina? Most pitches? Zodiac sign?

04-29-2015, 02:29 AM	#14
Nzsftbl Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 266	Reminds me of this... http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post2157516 Maybe one day I'll try this as well

04-30-2015, 03:33 PM	#18
Assos All Star Starter Join Date: May 2004 Location: Just on the fair side of the foul pole! Posts: 1,772	Your box scores on the pitching side are going to look like a Spring Training box score. 40 pitch count, hard limit, ouch!