the catcher lead-off & other bad ideas

[realstar]

When I play A.I. by myself, I participate in managing more than a GM normally would. The game allows for this: combination GM/Field Manager. I play by the day & use 7-day with all A.I. turned off for full control of batting orders. If, for example a player is tired, I see it & respond by replacing who I want & redoing batting order for that day if necessary. One day is usually enough & we return to the original batting order when the preferred player is no longer tired the next day.

When I play online league it's a weekly per sim & I still take full control of my ML team in the same way. But when a player is tired, A.I. replaces the player, overrides my order & we're into loss of control over the batting order.

If it's a good team, there's usually not so much to worry about. But when the team is weak, such as during a rebuild, weird stuff happens as A.I. attempts to compensate for weaknesses. This is when we find a catcher leading off, even when batting orders are set "traditional."

Generally, I find myself fighting the A.I.'s idea of what is the best batting order. This can actually be helpful, getting A.I.'s opinion: 2 heads are better than one, as A.I. is the sim manager's opinion. As someone once said on the forum, A.I. is "just a suggestion" & we can take it from there. Compromises might ensue on my part, give & take & in the long run it often works out to a rich determination of batting orders which can be better than working alone without it. The game teaches me about managing batting orders.

When the fighting becomes disturbing, is when I've lost control during online weekly sim. In my current online team, I have this catcher who never hits as well as A.I. seems to think he is capable of. It's a familiar A.I. problem dating to my first experiences on OOTP several versions ago. I don't know why it's always a catcher, but like I say this also happened in previous versions. Leading off a catcher who sucks. Maybe a glitch, or weakness in the program as priorities conflict & cause it to go postal?

[joefromchicago]

The problem with catchers batting leadoff has been discussed several times over the years on these forums. I think the consensus is that the AI treats the seventh spot in the lineup as the "second leadoff hitter." So if you have your catcher slotted as the seventh hitter in your lineup, the AI will bat him in the leadoff position in the event that your regular leadoff hitter is injured or is being subbed or is out of the lineup for some other reason.

I've never understood the logic behind treating the seventh hitter as the second leadoff hitter, but then I can't understand why anyone would bat their pitcher eighth, which, I guess, means I'll never be NL manager of the year.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

The problem with catchers batting leadoff has been discussed several times over the years on these forums. I think the consensus is that the AI treats the seventh spot in the lineup as the "second leadoff hitter." So if you have your catcher slotted as the seventh hitter in your lineup, the AI will bat him in the leadoff position in the event that your regular leadoff hitter is injured or is being subbed or is out of the lineup for some other reason.

I've never understood the logic behind treating the seventh hitter as the second leadoff hitter, but then I can't understand why anyone would bat their pitcher eighth, which, I guess, means I'll never be NL manager of the year.

I always check the AI vs my lineup choices, pretty well on a game by game basis and have not had an AI have C bat leadoff since v12.

[NoOne]

sometimes the ai definitely wants to do some odd things. i think it happens more when there are players with multiple defensive positions, and it definitely favors power too much.

e.g. i've seen the ai want to start a guy that had slightly more power and a significantly lower contact rating. literally some guy that shouldn't even be in the majors was starting over a hall of fame caliber batter... with better defensive ratings, too!

as far as your weekly sim, i have a suggestion to aovid it.

first, you must learn exactly how your players tire relative to your league's settings. so, if you know your catcher is "starting to tire" after 8 consecutive games, you know when he needs a sub.

once you have that knowledge, you can use the 7-day lineups to be proactive about subbing instead of letting the AI do it.

how to learn about your catcher: make a backup of the league, or merely make a new one with similar stamina settings. make the catcher have the same catching ability. i am fairly certain catching ability affects how they hold up over consecutive games played.

since this is for reference purposes, i'd make multiple catchers with varying catching ability and see how they hold up. edit the schedule to remove days off to hasten the process. throw away league when you are satisfied with understanding catcher fatigue.

[r0nster]

One time in my game it would have my catcher would be the replacement for a injuried player at SS or 2B. I thought it was odd. The unusual thing is the player did NOT hurt my team those games. WHEW. It seems when it wants a catcher in lead off spot its because he is a pretty good hitter. I do remember a real life catcher who would lead off games too and truth be told I forget his name and he caught for the Pirates within the last 10 years. The name that just came to me is Kendal????? NOT sure

[OBSL Commish]

Originally Posted by r0nster

One time in my game it would have my catcher would be the replacement for a injuried player at SS or 2B. I thought it was odd. The unusual thing is the player did NOT hurt my team those games. WHEW. It seems when it wants a catcher in lead off spot its because he is a pretty good hitter. I do remember a real life catcher who would lead off games too and truth be told I forget his name and he caught for the Pirates within the last 10 years. The name that just came to me is Kendal????? NOT sure

Yeah, Jason Kendall. Great OBP guy. Had one of the worst injuries I've ever seen. He stepped on first base awkwardly and all four tendons holding his foot to his ankle popped off the bones all at once.

[SteveP]

When the leadoff guy takes the day off, the AI will replace him with the guy who hits 3rd, 5th or 7th. It's unclear how they AI decides which to use. However, the guy who normally bats 5th is often a pretty good choice, and the guy who normally bats 3rd is usually an OK choice. Since the catcher often bats 7th in a AI lineup, you do see the catcher batting leadoff from time to time.

Markus has rejected the notion of trying to prevent this from happening. And it probably is more annoying to see than it is harmful to the team.

[landru22]

I simply don't understand why the AI just doesn't choose the best lineup from the players available for that day. Having the catcher, or any other slow-footed and often bad obpct guy, bat leadoff is beyond me. This is one of my few pet peeves about this otherwise great game.

Would a real-life manager choose his daily line-up this way? "Hmm, let's see... Speedy Gonzales has the day off today, so I think I'll bat my catcher Tom the Turtle leadoff because he normally bats 7th." I don't think so!

[bwburke94]

This is a huge legacy issue.

The AI should look at the 5-6-7-8-9 hitters, see which of them is the best leadoff hitter, and move players up appropriately.

[NoOne]

the reason why people want it changed so much, is because there is not an agreed upon "best" lineup method.

so, no one can be happy. i can understand the hesitation to re-vamp it.

people could argue about it all day until they are blue in the face, and few things would be agreed upon.

if they overhauled it, i'd suggest somethign simple like using oba+ while making sure the best XBH-hitters are in their traditional places (3-4-5). assuming that stepping through the combinations of available position combinations should be mostly re-useable.

they can't make many of us happy with any particular method, so just keep it simple and turn a deaf ear. (even if it isn't oba+)

if you're having issues and have tried most things, change the AI lineups setting - traditional/sabermetric. it might produce a lineup you prefer, even if you don't expect it from the title of the setting.

[jpeters1734]

So why is a Catcher batting leadoff a bad idea? Other than the fact that most catchers are not lead off quality.

[NoOne]

i can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, lol!

that's kinda my point, though. some people won't be happy even if the catcher batting leadoff is justified by some relevant metric(s), while others will be upset if they aren't.

a simple lineup model that is very predictable and produces fairly optimal lineups is all that can be expected. any expectation too specific will result in disappointment for most players. it's not important which exact way it's done.

if it's simple, you know you wont get some unintended product from a convoluted tangle of logic. it may not be a perfect lineup, but you avoid the craziness.

i've seen terrible hitters near the top of the order.. trust that this is not a subjective statemnt - e.g. sub-.200 hitter with better options on bench. i think it's coincidence when it's a catcher. (it's important to note that i don't care about a batter's position, just their offensive traits.)

i've noticed this happening recently while looking over a stacked team in the opposing league before the playoffs.

while an all-star capable player was on the bench a sub-.200 hitter with high power was batting 2nd. the only thing this guy was better at was his power rating, and the guy on the bench was actually a decent power hitter. it wasn't even an age thing... the chump was a 38y.o. FA signing the previous offseason.

First, i checked if multiple defensive positions were causing the odd lineup by removing the lesser ones. that didn't change anythign for me. then, i changed the ai lineup setting, and it produced a logical lineup, even if it was not how i would construct one. i'm not suggesting either ai setting, but rather changing it when you see something you don't like and you can always change it back.

[jpeters1734]

Originally Posted by NoOne

i can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, lol!

No I'm not. I'm asking, why shouldn't a catcher bat lead off if he has the ability?

[r0nster]

I stand to be corrected but IF memory serves there is a setting somewhere that you can change from sabermatrics lineup to traditional. I think Sabormatrics is default. My thinking is traditional style lineup would change to prevent catchers from being the lead off hitter.

[MBarrett]

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

No I'm not. I'm asking, why shouldn't a catcher bat lead off if he has the ability?

1. A Catcher rarely has the "ability" you need/want from a leadoff hitter. Good eye, speed, OBP, etc.

2. Even if he did. the extra ABs and subsequent wear n' tear on them probably isn't worth it. Backstops have enough to think and worry about during the game, just let him go up there and swing away at the bottom half of the order.

[jpeters1734]

Originally Posted by MBarrett

1. A Catcher rarely has the "ability" you need/want from a leadoff hitter. Good eye, speed, OBP, etc.

2. Even if he did. the extra ABs and subsequent wear n' tear on them probably isn't worth it. Backstops have enough to think and worry about during the game, just let him go up there and swing away at the bottom half of the order.

I understand #1. obviously you would only want him to bat leadoff if he has the ability.

I also really don't think that maybe 1 extra PA a game will add much more wear and tear. For catchers, that comes from playing defense, not offense.

[NoOne]

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

No I'm not. I'm asking, why shouldn't a catcher bat lead off if he has the ability?

besides a lack of talent, i don't see any reason. just like you.

some people are more... traditional. i think that's the pc term

stewie griffin's anxiously spoken quote sums up alot of people: "There's something wrong wth the house. I don't like change!"

it's like the world being flat... you can't speak out against it because that's the way it's always been and the mob will get angry and confused.

i have a semi-retired sports writer near me named <something> Green(e). the guy is just a angry old man who hates change. he writes these terribly misinformed editorials and uses falsely made definitions to take shots at newer statistical metrics. his articles are teeming with logical fallacies and personal insecurties.

he does not care about understanding, he just hates it because it's new, and more importantly he does not understand it, whether intentionally or subconsciously. a rational person admits that some of the new stats are flawed as well as some of the traditional stats and accepts the good ones regardless of origin or comfort level.

there is no "right" side. no one is trying to replace anything or get rid of anything. these misperception is part of the problem. it's merely progress with a couple steps backward on occasion.

[NoOne]

Originally Posted by MBarrett

1. A Catcher rarely has the "ability" you need/want from a leadoff hitter. Good eye, speed, OBP, etc.

2. Even if he did. the extra ABs and subsequent wear n' tear on them probably isn't worth it. Backstops have enough to think and worry about during the game, just let him go up there and swing away at the bottom half of the order.

1) this can be assumed, regardless of our position on where to bat a catcher. most players do not have the requirements of a leadoff or 2nd batter.

if the game puts a poor hitter up there, it has little to do with his position. e.g. i think sabermetrics favors power in the 2-hole, so you see the catcher there on occasion. it's not because he is a catcher or a 2b.

2) in real life that may or may not hold weight. in game it doesn't increase fatigue. that's tied to games and innings in my experience. as long as i don't have extra inning games, my catcher tires after the same amount of games like clockwork.

in real life, that is defintiely a used reason. no idea if it has value, but managers are willingly to break it when they have a good offensive catcher, so i doubt it's validity. maybe it's just to make the lesser guys feel better aobut batting last, lol. jk on that last part.


i think the biggest reason why people don't like a catcher up top is the overvalueing of small percentages like speed and/or a need to cling to tradition. the latter is a common phenomenom. it's difficult for a person to admit that something they have believed in for decades might be wrong. people's egos and misplaced feelings get in the way of progress.

[Orcin]

If the game used reason or logic or even a dice roll to decide the leadoff hitter, it would be a better system than the current system: player in lineup spot #1 unavailable? if yes, then put #7 hitter in #1 position. Surely the game can be programmed to make a better decision than that.

[r0nster]

guys there is a setting for this as I mentioned above