Poll: Which Player for Cleanup Spot

[Orcin]

Two players are presented below. Which player would you choose for the DH and to bat cleanup, considering that you will only keep one on the roster? The stats presented are the actual stats accumulated by the two players on my team to date. I plan to move on from one of them, but I am undecided and looking for input/opinions.



The two players seem equal using some basic stats (OPS, wOBA, WAR). However, they get there in a different way. Player A sees more pitches per AB, putting more pressure on opposing pitchers, and draws more walks but with way more strikeouts. Player A has more power (ISO) but player B has an equal SLG achieved through more singles. Player B puts the ball in play and has a little more speed, both putting more pressure on the defense. The WPA would indicate that player B has been involved in more winning plays, which could bode well as a cleanup hitter.

Who would you pick? What may I have missed in my analysis? Are there other factors that I have overlooked?

Thanks in advance for your input.

[Josquin]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Two players are presented below. Which player would you choose for the DH and to bat cleanup, considering that you will only keep one on the roster? The stats presented are the actual stats accumulated by the two players on my team to date. I plan to move on from one of them, but I am undecided and looking for input/opinions.

Attachment 637980

The two players seem equal using some basic stats (OPS, wOBA, WAR). However, they get there in a different way. Player A sees more pitches per AB, putting more pressure on opposing pitchers, and draws more walks but with way more strikeouts. Player A has more power (ISO) but player B has an equal SLG achieved through more singles. Player B puts the ball in play and has a little more speed, both putting more pressure on the defense. The WPA would indicate that player B has been involved in more winning plays, which could bode well as a cleanup hitter.

Who would you pick? What may I have missed in my analysis? Are there other factors that I have overlooked?

Thanks in advance for your input.

Assuming these numbers are representative of each player's typical performance, Player A will produce about 10 more runs per 550 AB than Player B. So Player A would be the better choice. However, I would want more than one season's worth of data before making up my mind.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Josquin

Assuming these numbers are representative of each player's typical performance, Player A will produce about 10 more runs per 550 AB than Player B. So Player A would be the better choice. However, I would want more than one season's worth of data before making up my mind.

Thanks for that calculation!

The data is based on ~3000 plate appearances, so roughly four seasons of data for each player.

[X3NEIZE]

Player A is the better cleanup hitter based on those numbers... I’m curious who the player is ....

99 Babe?

[Josquin]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Thanks for that calculation!

The data is based on ~3000 plate appearances, so roughly four seasons of data for each player.

Ah, I missed that part in your data. In that case, you should have enough data to pull the trigger.

By the way, I would advise against the traditional leadoff/cleanup batting order nonsense. Just order your hitters in order of run production, so that your best run producers get the most at-bats.

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by Josquin

Ah, I missed that part in your data. In that case, you should have enough data to pull the trigger.

By the way, I would advise against the traditional leadoff/cleanup batting order nonsense. Just order your hitters in order of run production, so that your best run producers get the most at-bats.

What kind of sorcery is this??????

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Josquin

Ah, I missed that part in your data. In that case, you should have enough data to pull the trigger.

By the way, I would advise against the traditional leadoff/cleanup batting order nonsense. Just order your hitters in order of run production, so that your best run producers get the most at-bats.

That may be more efficient, but it makes Tom Tango cry.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by X3NEIZE

Player A is the better cleanup hitter based on those numbers... I’m curious who the player is ....

99 Babe?

No, but I will reveal the players soon. I want to let the poll run for a little while first before I taint the results with names.

[pgjocki]

I'm leaning more towards Player B as in my opinion 10 homeruns more isn't worth the 20 less hits and way more K's.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Dogberry99]

I'm surprised that player B's stats are based on an average of 53 fewer plate appearances. Its a small amount, but factoring them in would push some of the counting stats a bit higher.

Do those two players appear to have about the same amount of seasonal variance? When there is an observable difference, I personally value a card that is consistently good more than one that could sometimes be much better - but sometimes much worse.

Otherwise, this looks like it would be more or less a win-win and would boil down to what statistics and/or ratings you find more important. Player B appears to be more in line with hitting profiles I traditionally value, but I doubt I'd ever be disappointed by Player A.

[Orcin]

B has more seasonal variance.

[Izz]

Player A all the way!

Though I'd probably put him at 3 in the lineup, not 4.

[moalkha]

Originally Posted by Orcin

B has more seasonal variance.

That make sense, since it appears that his production is strictly related to BABIP, which varies a lot from season to season.
Player A, being mostly a 3 true outcome hitter, will probably performe at the same level every season, unless he find himself in a league full of Greg Maddux

[Goliathus]

From a strictly cleanup perspective, I would take player B. Here are my argument: BB is worth less than H in a cleanup spot. You want to hit the ball so your players in scoring position can score. BB is great, but I consider that second tier stat for a cleaner. Same for P/PA; unless I construct my whole team to be a patient, grind-your-pen-out machine, I am willing to give up 0.8 P/PA and some BB for my cleaner to connect more. The one downside for player B is the lack of HR, which is the holy grail for a cleaner, but I think the 2B and 3B sort of compensate for that. Again, I am looking from a "get hits and let the runners score" perspective. Another thing to consider is SO. Player B put more balls into play that Player A, those balls might not get you a H for him but they might advanced a scorer from 2nd to 3rd and/or 1st to 2nd -- the downside is that he might get into more double plays too, you might want to check that.

I think you have to factor in your whole team as well. I might argue that player A is better if your first few bats don't have ultrasonic speed and can be idiotic on the base path -- check their BR stat, some players I have seen are very stupid on the base path despite their speed so they are in the negative. You don't want these idiots on base with player B cuz they might get caught on some stupid running attempts with those balls-in-play. In those cases, just betting on BB or HR or take a K(so the runners have no chance to tryhard) and let the 5th bat do the job could be a better option.

[Matt Arnold]

In a vaccuum, I can't choose. Generally speaking, though, if you guarantee them the 4th spot in the lineup, I'd choose player B. If they were batting 3rd, I'd probably opt for player A. But as mentioned it depends on who's hitting ahead and behind them. If your #3 hitter is an empty power hitter, then I might opt for player A, since the extra batting won't matter as much.

Of course, there's plenty of other factors at play too in the PT world - can either of them play defense at a competent level to sub in for another position if you change course? Does L/R balance come into play? If you're dumping one, which one fetches more on the auction house?

[waittilnextyear]

How could I decide without knowing which one is the better RBI man?

--Joe Morgan


I voted for Player B because that type of hitter is more my speed. I think it would be helpful to have baserunning/batted ball profile/GIDP information added into the mix. I am assuming that B is the better baserunner and probably has the better batted ball profile due to the SB and AVG respectively. It would also be helpful to know what ballpark modifiers you prefer--this could tilt the balance between A and B if one of their strengths is accentuated or discounted.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Goliathus

Player B put more balls into play that Player A, those balls might not get you a H for him but they might advanced a scorer from 2nd to 3rd and/or 1st to 2nd -- the downside is that he might get into more double plays too, you might want to check that.

Yes, I should have put that in. Based on the 162 game avg, A has 17 GDP and B has 12. I am surprised by that. I expected B to have more GDP.

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

In a vaccuum, I can't choose. Generally speaking, though, if you guarantee them the 4th spot in the lineup, I'd choose player B. If they were batting 3rd, I'd probably opt for player A. But as mentioned it depends on who's hitting ahead and behind them. If your #3 hitter is an empty power hitter, then I might opt for player A, since the extra batting won't matter as much.

For most of the time, B has been batting second and A has been batting third. I plan to sell the current #4 hitter (plus either A or B) to upgrade defensively and obtain some points to re-invest in pitching; hence the need to choose a new #4 hitter. My team has an Earl Weaver style. We typically lead the league in HR and rank in bottom half in SB/BSR. I would like to upgrade the team speed with these changes, but I don't want to completely flip the style to Whiteyball. I want the guy that I keep to be the best overall run producer.

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Of course, there's plenty of other factors at play too in the PT world - can either of them play defense at a competent level to sub in for another position if you change course? Does L/R balance come into play? If you're dumping one, which one fetches more on the auction house?

All great questions...

Both players are mediocre defenders and I want better. Part of the reason for the change is that B has been playing in the field and I want to upgrade the defense at that position. A has played in the field at times but I had already pretty much moved him to DH full-time. However, both could be used in the field if I changed course and was willing to accept average defense. They both play corner positions.

Both are left-handed batters. B has a greater platoon differential than A. B is still a good hitter against lefties, but A is nearly equal L vs. R.

B will bring a higher price due to supply/demand factors related to missions.

Originally Posted by waittilnextyear

How could I decide without knowing which one is the better RBI man?

--Joe Morgan

LOL. A is the better RBI man, Joe. Maybe that has to do with lineup position though.

Originally Posted by waittilnextyear

I voted for Player B because that type of hitter is more my speed. I think it would be helpful to have baserunning/batted ball profile/GIDP information added into the mix. I am assuming that B is the better baserunner and probably has the better batted ball profile due to the SB and AVG respectively.

A has a flyball/normal/normal profile. B is flyball/extreme pull/extreme pull. B is the faster baserunner and has better STL/BSR skills. Yes, it is surprising that B has such a good average with the dreaded extreme pull profile (but at least it is flyball and not groundball).

Originally Posted by waittilnextyear

It would also be helpful to know what ballpark modifiers you prefer--this could tilt the balance between A and B if one of their strengths is accentuated or discounted.

I am using a completely neutral ballpark and don't plan to change. I just like it that way.

There's enough info here that many of you will have guessed the players by now, so I might as well tell you.

Originally Posted by X3NEIZE

Player A is the better cleanup hitter based on those numbers... I’m curious who the player is ....

99 Babe?

You were 99.9% correct.

A is 100 Babe Ruth. B is 100 George Brett.

I have 100 Wade Boggs at 1B and he has one MVP award for me so I want to keep him over Brett. I am using 100 Jackie Robinson now at 3B because I wanted better defense there than either Brett or Boggs was giving me. I have been flipping Boggs and Brett between 1B/3B for a few years, and Brett is really not great at either one. I have considered 99 Brett at 3B for better defense, but Jackie is just a better overall player. Plus I want to convert the points into pitching, not another infielder and especially one that needs to be platooned.

This year, I moved Babe to LF in order to have Brett at DH. Babe is not terrible in the outfield, but I also have 100 Mantle who is better there. I also have 100 Aaron and 99 DiMaggio on the roster, so I need to move an outfielder or two in order to upgrade my pitching. Mays (99) is in CF and he is not going anywhere. In 10 full seasons in Perfect Leagues, Mays has 60 WAR.

Mantle is on the reserve roster right now, and I plan to bring him back to replace either A or B. I am playing Aaron over DiMaggio in RF, and I could leave Aaron batting fourth and bat either Ruth or Brett third. However, DiMaggio is a better defender and strikes out far less. Aaron has good value right now, so I was considering batting DiMaggio third and either Ruth or Brett fourth. Considering Joe's terrible speed, Ruth might be a better choice to bat behind him but perhaps I should think about leaving Aaron at cleanup (selling Joe D) and batting Ruth or Brett third.

Thanks again for all of the input. It was all very valuable to me. Plus I love to talk about this game. So, additional feedback is really welcome now that you know the names. I would really be interested in who you would sell and where you would bat the rest. Here is the current starting lineup by position...

C McCarver/Molina platoon bats 8th
1B Boggs (100)
2B Wagner (100) trained to 100+ at 2b
3B J. Robinson (100)
SS Boudreau bats 9th
LF Ruth (100) now, will be Mantle (100) - have considered selling Mantle and buying Cobb (99) to upgrade team speed
CF Mays (99)
RF Aaron (100) or DiMaggio (99) - have considered selling both and buying DiMaggio (100)
DH Ruth or Brett (100)

Sell: Ruth or Brett, Aaron or Joe (or flip both to 100 Joe),

[X3NEIZE]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Yes, I should have put that in. Based on the 162 game avg, A has 17 GDP and B has 12. I am surprised by that. I expected B to have more GDP.

A is 100 Babe Ruth. B is 100 George Brett.

I have 100 Wade Boggs at 1B and he has one MVP award for me so I want to keep him over Brett. I am using 100 Jackie Robinson now at 3B because I wanted better defense there than either Brett or Boggs was giving me. I have been flipping Boggs and Brett between 1B/3B for a few years, and Brett is really not great at either one. I have considered 99 Brett at 3B for better defense, but Jackie is just a better overall player. Plus I want to convert the points into pitching, not another infielder and especially one that needs to be platooned.

This year, I moved Babe to LF in order to have Brett at DH. Babe is not terrible in the outfield, but I also have 100 Mantle who is better there. I also have 100 Aaron and 99 DiMaggio on the roster, so I need to move an outfielder or two in order to upgrade my pitching. Mays (99) is in CF and he is not going anywhere. In 10 full seasons in Perfect Leagues, Mays has 60 WAR.

Mantle is on the reserve roster right now, and I plan to bring him back to replace either A or B. I am playing Aaron over DiMaggio in RF, and I could leave Aaron batting fourth and bat either Ruth or Brett third. However, DiMaggio is a better defender and strikes out far less. Aaron has good value right now, so I was considering batting DiMaggio third and either Ruth or Brett fourth. Considering Joe's terrible speed, Ruth might be a better choice to bat behind him but perhaps I should think about leaving Aaron at cleanup (selling Joe D) and batting Ruth or Brett third.

Thanks again for all of the input. It was all very valuable to me. Plus I love to talk about this game. So, additional feedback is really welcome now that you know the names. I would really be interested in who you would sell and where you would bat the rest. Here is the current starting lineup by position...

C McCarver/Molina platoon bats 8th
1B Boggs (100)
2B Wagner (100) trained to 100+ at 2b
3B J. Robinson (100)
SS Boudreau bats 9th
LF Ruth (100) now, will be Mantle (100) - have considered selling Mantle and buying Cobb (99) to upgrade team speed
CF Mays (99)
RF Aaron (100) or DiMaggio (99) - have considered selling both and buying DiMaggio (100)
DH Ruth or Brett (100)

Sell: Ruth or Brett, Aaron or Joe (or flip both to 100 Joe),

As much as I love Ruth, and I try to use him all the time..... Brett is the better PL player.... can play position and has better baserunning abilities and better contact...

Basically, the meta of the game is tailored more for Brett....

But I'd put Brett as a #3 hitter, personally..

And yeah, get 100 Joe, he is probably along with Cobb, the best PL player IMO.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by X3NEIZE

But I'd put Brett as a #3 hitter, personally..

Who would you bat fourth, 100 Joe?

[X3NEIZE]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Who would you bat fourth, 100 Joe?

I actually do since 2029.... and I have Ruth 5th (On and off)..

See for yourself...



He bats 2nd or 3rd vs Lefties.... and 4th vs RHP...