List of Historical and General OOTP Problems That Need Fixes

Charlie Hough · 02-16-2023, 03:49 PM

I've been compiling a list of pretty significant issues with OOTP, and these include problems with both historical games and with general AI or sim behavior that could impact current MLB games as well.

This list was compiled based on multiple historical saved games and across multiple seasons within those games. In each case, I was using real historical minors, but I don't think that impacted or created any of these issues.

1. The AI must STOP leaving starting pitchers in the game for far too long, even when the pull starting pitcher AI slider is set to maximum. The AI will leave starters in the game to give up 7 runs instead of pulling them, even with the slider all the way to the maximum of quick pulling of starters. No manager is ever going to do this if there is a full bullpen of rested relievers available. The AI needs to base pulling pitchers on runs and earned runs allowed and not just fatigue and historical era strategy settings.

2. Too many quality free agents remain unsigned by spring training and the start of the season, and too many of them suddenly accept minor league contracts with major league options. AI teams should be signing these players before it gets to this point, and I can't figure out why they're not doing it. Their contract demands aren't high, they're often better than other players on teams' 40-man rosters, and their latest stats and ratings are very good. If they were signed in a more timely fashion, then they wouldn't end up lowering their demands and settling for a minor league deal with a major league option.

3. The AI leaves far too many experienced major league players as free agents after the entire off-season and spring training, and even throughout the subsequent season. It could easily sign them to minor league contracts, but it doesn't do that. Many of them are good enough to be on an MLB roster and have better ratings than some of the AI teams players at their positions. But the AI does not recognize this. AI teams could sign these players to improve their talent at certain positions or to assign these players to AAA and later call them up in case of injuries or poor performance, but there are always a number of veteran players that the AI ignores and leaves as free agents. For example, how does Milt Wilcox, with 16 wins during the previous season and decent ratings, remain unsigned with a low contract demand? How do outfielders who are good enough to be starter or a team's best reserve outfielder go unsigned?

4. The AI waives players far too frequently and risks losing younger players or players with good talent because it keeps waiving some of the same players multiple times throughout a season. The AI will often waive players with good ratings and good prior-year or even current-year stats, yet it will keep players on the roster at the same position that are not as good. Then another AI team or the human team will claim some of these players, and they are lost with no compensation.

5. League total modifiers are sometimes incorrect or inappropriate for starting pitcher stamina and sometimes for relief pitcher stamina as well. I am seeing this when using a player's total career as a basis for stamina, so maybe the sim is trying to adjust for the higher overall pitcher stamina. But it ends up creating situations where starting pitchers and relivers cannot throw a realistic number of pitches relative to their stamina ratings and their era without starting to become fatigued too early and then becoming so fatigued that they can't pitch to a realistic number of innings compared to what they regularly did in real life. For example, I've seen the sim set starting pitcher stamina at around .830 for 1981, which is far too low. I end up having to manually review the league total modifiers each season to ensure accuracy.

6. Similar to the above, league total modifiers for balks are typically way above what they should be. For historical games in the 1980s and 1990s, I consistently see the sim set the modifier at 1.2+, which results in way too many balks being called. I have to manually change this modifier after it's calculated before each season.

7. Occasionally, the AI makes insane decisions, such as placing a young Ozzie Smith on irrevocable waivers when he is by far the best shortstop in the organization. I had to use the option to lock Smith and one of his teammates on the 1981 San Diego Padres because the AI kept wanting to waive and demote them and use players who had worse ratings at their positions. I've seen similar problems with Alfredo Griffin, the top shortstop in the Toronto Blue Jays organization in 1981, being declined arbitration and being allowed to become a free agent despite having a low contract demand.

8. In some cases, counter to point #2 above, players have an overly inflated expectation that they should be signed to a major league contract extension when they're currently on a minor league deal and their ratings and recent history do not justify this. For example, a player who is currently in the minors, has a minor league contract, isn't good enough to be on 40-man roster, and has never played in the majors or has not played in the majors over the past couple of seasons, should not be demanding a major league contract.

Garlon · 02-18-2023, 03:31 AM

1. I think this is in part due to when the Hook Starter and Hook Reliever settings got introduced in the league settings. I was against those being part of historicals. People complained about CG issues so that was introduced. I think that those settings should be left at default for all historical seasons. Those settings will often be in direct opposition to the Modifiers. This may cause issues.

2. That sounds like an issue with the financial system rather than a historical problem.

3. They need to find a way to get more players signed. Again, this is a problem with financials.

4. More financial system problems.

5. You are misunderstanding how the Modifiers work. Targeting CG is not really important. If you want to make CG your target you can do this from the engine file and weight CG at 100 and IPouts/GS at 1. There are also strategy settings involved with whether a pitcher gets a CG too. Keep in mind that pitching 26 vs 27 outs just to geta CG is not significant. If you make CG the most important thing for pitchers, you will create problems.

6. This should be fairly easy to correct. I will tell them that this needs to be improved.

7. More financial system problems.

8. More financial system problems.

Garlon · 02-18-2023, 03:47 AM

If you want to target CG rate, try this:

1. Start OOTP

2. At the bottom of the screen select Settings

3. Select Troubleshooting

4. Open folder containing file 'app.cfg' & 'engine.cfg'

5. BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL HERE.

Right click on engine.cfg and select "open with".

YOU MUST UNCHECK THE BOX THAT SAYS "always use this app to open .cfg files"

Select Notepad to open the file.

6. Scroll down to the bottom of the file. There are these two entries:

HISTORICAL_SP_STAMINA_CALCULATION_IPGS_WEIGHT
100

HISTORICAL_SP_STAMINA_CALCULATION_CGP_WEIGHT
50

7. This is how the game defaults the balance between IPouts per GS and CG percentage. You can see that it is weighted twice as much toward IPouts epr GS by default. You will get the best pitching results and balance between SP and RP if you change the CG weight to 1 instead of 50.

However, this is not what you are asking for. You want more CG.

To get more CG, change the IPGS Weight to 1 (you can simply delete the zeros from the 100, you do not need to move the position of the 1).

Then change the CGP Weight to 100 instead of 50.

8. When you have finished the edits go to File and select SAVE.

DO NOT SELECT SAVE AS

When you start a new season or a new league the Modifiers will completely target CG percentage for the season. You will get accurate CG results.

I think the rule for CG has changed historically.

Consider that in 1903 that there were more CG than Wins. Is it really practical to target throwing a CG over putting in a PH to try to win the game?

Charlie Hough · 02-19-2023, 02:07 PM

Garlon, none of this really has anything to do with CG rates or hitting target CG numbers, so let me clarify a couple of things. I should have phrased point #5 in a different way, so I've fixed that in the original post. Maybe you can edit your posts accordingly, so hopefully the developers don't glance at this and assume it's based on concerns about CGs.

My concern about league modifiers for pitcher fatigue is how they impact the number of pitches thrown before pitchers become fatigued and then exhausted, which has a huge impact on their individual game performance and individual game results.

If pitchers start to fatigue too soon, it has a major impact on their performance in subsequent at-bats, and it leads to premature exhaustion, where they became completely ineffective too early. So the human manager is forced to pull pitchers too soon compared to real life tendencies, in order to combat this overly early fatigue. In contrast, the AI often leaves pitchers in the game too long, and they give up too many runs, per my discussion in point #1 above.

This isn't about hitting a CG number. It's about making sure pitchers can throw a proper number of pitches without getting fatigued too early, and that applies to any point in an individual game and to starters as well as relievers.

If a lot of starters can't throw more than six or seven innings without getting into major fatigue, despite having high stamina and playing in an era where starters threw more pitches per start, and it's all because the modifiers were calculated too low, then that's a real problem. Similarly, if relievers can barely get through two innings when needed, that can be a similar problem in certain eras and with certain stamina ratings.

I have conducted numerous tests where I've seen OOTP calculate the league total modifiers for fatigue to be too high or too low, perhaps in an attempt to adjust for stamina ratings being based on pitchers' total careers. But these adjustments are often a bit too extreme in one direction or the other. So the modifiers cause these undesirable results and an unrealistic in-game management and AI management experience. If I adjust them myself, this generally stops happening and I see the immediate difference in how many more or fewer pitches a pitcher can throw before fatigue and exhaustion set in. This seems to be clear proof that the modifiers are not quite right and are the root cause of the problem.

That being said, I don't want to have to babysit this or make my own adjustments, because that defeats the purpose of the modifiers, and I'm not privy to all the hidden calculations that OOTP is making. This means I can't be precise or know exactly how much I should adjust things to get the desired results. There's a bit of trial-and-error and guesswork, so if the modifiers can be perfected relative to the user's various historical game settings, that would be ideal. I'm sure it wouldn't be easy to figure it all out, but it certainly seems feasible.

Garlon · 02-19-2023, 09:47 PM

Please give a d as pacific example. I only okay historical games and I use vase stamina on career and the modifier is fine and the game results are fine.

You can look up the IP per GS on baseball reference it in the game era stats file.

7 innings is 21 outs per game. When was the last season that SPs averaged that? We also have Relief pitcher IPouts per game and the game has a modifier for that too.

02-18-2023, 03:47 AM	#3
Garlon Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,252	If you want to target CG rate, try this: 1. Start OOTP 2. At the bottom of the screen select Settings 3. Select Troubleshooting 4. Open folder containing file 'app.cfg' & 'engine.cfg' 5. BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL HERE. Right click on engine.cfg and select "open with". YOU MUST UNCHECK THE BOX THAT SAYS "always use this app to open .cfg files" Select Notepad to open the file. 6. Scroll down to the bottom of the file. There are these two entries: HISTORICAL_SP_STAMINA_CALCULATION_IPGS_WEIGHT 100 HISTORICAL_SP_STAMINA_CALCULATION_CGP_WEIGHT 50 7. This is how the game defaults the balance between IPouts per GS and CG percentage. You can see that it is weighted twice as much toward IPouts epr GS by default. You will get the best pitching results and balance between SP and RP if you change the CG weight to 1 instead of 50. However, this is not what you are asking for. You want more CG. To get more CG, change the IPGS Weight to 1 (you can simply delete the zeros from the 100, you do not need to move the position of the 1). Then change the CGP Weight to 100 instead of 50. 8. When you have finished the edits go to File and select SAVE. DO NOT SELECT SAVE AS When you start a new season or a new league the Modifiers will completely target CG percentage for the season. You will get accurate CG results. I think the rule for CG has changed historically. Consider that in 1903 that there were more CG than Wins. Is it really practical to target throwing a CG over putting in a PH to try to win the game? Last edited by Garlon; 02-18-2023 at 03:49 AM.

02-19-2023, 02:07 PM	#4
Charlie Hough Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,640	Garlon, none of this really has anything to do with CG rates or hitting target CG numbers, so let me clarify a couple of things. I should have phrased point #5 in a different way, so I've fixed that in the original post. Maybe you can edit your posts accordingly, so hopefully the developers don't glance at this and assume it's based on concerns about CGs. My concern about league modifiers for pitcher fatigue is how they impact the number of pitches thrown before pitchers become fatigued and then exhausted, which has a huge impact on their individual game performance and individual game results. If pitchers start to fatigue too soon, it has a major impact on their performance in subsequent at-bats, and it leads to premature exhaustion, where they became completely ineffective too early. So the human manager is forced to pull pitchers too soon compared to real life tendencies, in order to combat this overly early fatigue. In contrast, the AI often leaves pitchers in the game too long, and they give up too many runs, per my discussion in point #1 above. This isn't about hitting a CG number. It's about making sure pitchers can throw a proper number of pitches without getting fatigued too early, and that applies to any point in an individual game and to starters as well as relievers. If a lot of starters can't throw more than six or seven innings without getting into major fatigue, despite having high stamina and playing in an era where starters threw more pitches per start, and it's all because the modifiers were calculated too low, then that's a real problem. Similarly, if relievers can barely get through two innings when needed, that can be a similar problem in certain eras and with certain stamina ratings. I have conducted numerous tests where I've seen OOTP calculate the league total modifiers for fatigue to be too high or too low, perhaps in an attempt to adjust for stamina ratings being based on pitchers' total careers. But these adjustments are often a bit too extreme in one direction or the other. So the modifiers cause these undesirable results and an unrealistic in-game management and AI management experience. If I adjust them myself, this generally stops happening and I see the immediate difference in how many more or fewer pitches a pitcher can throw before fatigue and exhaustion set in. This seems to be clear proof that the modifiers are not quite right and are the root cause of the problem. That being said, I don't want to have to babysit this or make my own adjustments, because that defeats the purpose of the modifiers, and I'm not privy to all the hidden calculations that OOTP is making. This means I can't be precise or know exactly how much I should adjust things to get the desired results. There's a bit of trial-and-error and guesswork, so if the modifiers can be perfected relative to the user's various historical game settings, that would be ideal. I'm sure it wouldn't be easy to figure it all out, but it certainly seems feasible. Last edited by Charlie Hough; 02-19-2023 at 06:58 PM.

02-16-2023, 03:49 PM	#1
Charlie Hough Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,640	List of Historical and General OOTP Problems That Need Fixes I've been compiling a list of pretty significant issues with OOTP, and these include problems with both historical games and with general AI or sim behavior that could impact current MLB games as well. This list was compiled based on multiple historical saved games and across multiple seasons within those games. In each case, I was using real historical minors, but I don't think that impacted or created any of these issues. 1. The AI must STOP leaving starting pitchers in the game for far too long, even when the pull starting pitcher AI slider is set to maximum. The AI will leave starters in the game to give up 7 runs instead of pulling them, even with the slider all the way to the maximum of quick pulling of starters. No manager is ever going to do this if there is a full bullpen of rested relievers available. The AI needs to base pulling pitchers on runs and earned runs allowed and not just fatigue and historical era strategy settings. 2. Too many quality free agents remain unsigned by spring training and the start of the season, and too many of them suddenly accept minor league contracts with major league options. AI teams should be signing these players before it gets to this point, and I can't figure out why they're not doing it. Their contract demands aren't high, they're often better than other players on teams' 40-man rosters, and their latest stats and ratings are very good. If they were signed in a more timely fashion, then they wouldn't end up lowering their demands and settling for a minor league deal with a major league option. 3. The AI leaves far too many experienced major league players as free agents after the entire off-season and spring training, and even throughout the subsequent season. It could easily sign them to minor league contracts, but it doesn't do that. Many of them are good enough to be on an MLB roster and have better ratings than some of the AI teams players at their positions. But the AI does not recognize this. AI teams could sign these players to improve their talent at certain positions or to assign these players to AAA and later call them up in case of injuries or poor performance, but there are always a number of veteran players that the AI ignores and leaves as free agents. For example, how does Milt Wilcox, with 16 wins during the previous season and decent ratings, remain unsigned with a low contract demand? How do outfielders who are good enough to be starter or a team's best reserve outfielder go unsigned? 4. The AI waives players far too frequently and risks losing younger players or players with good talent because it keeps waiving some of the same players multiple times throughout a season. The AI will often waive players with good ratings and good prior-year or even current-year stats, yet it will keep players on the roster at the same position that are not as good. Then another AI team or the human team will claim some of these players, and they are lost with no compensation. 5. League total modifiers are sometimes incorrect or inappropriate for starting pitcher stamina and sometimes for relief pitcher stamina as well. I am seeing this when using a player's total career as a basis for stamina, so maybe the sim is trying to adjust for the higher overall pitcher stamina. But it ends up creating situations where starting pitchers and relivers cannot throw a realistic number of pitches relative to their stamina ratings and their era without starting to become fatigued too early and then becoming so fatigued that they can't pitch to a realistic number of innings compared to what they regularly did in real life. For example, I've seen the sim set starting pitcher stamina at around .830 for 1981, which is far too low. I end up having to manually review the league total modifiers each season to ensure accuracy. 6. Similar to the above, league total modifiers for balks are typically way above what they should be. For historical games in the 1980s and 1990s, I consistently see the sim set the modifier at 1.2+, which results in way too many balks being called. I have to manually change this modifier after it's calculated before each season. 7. Occasionally, the AI makes insane decisions, such as placing a young Ozzie Smith on irrevocable waivers when he is by far the best shortstop in the organization. I had to use the option to lock Smith and one of his teammates on the 1981 San Diego Padres because the AI kept wanting to waive and demote them and use players who had worse ratings at their positions. I've seen similar problems with Alfredo Griffin, the top shortstop in the Toronto Blue Jays organization in 1981, being declined arbitration and being allowed to become a free agent despite having a low contract demand. 8. In some cases, counter to point #2 above, players have an overly inflated expectation that they should be signed to a major league contract extension when they're currently on a minor league deal and their ratings and recent history do not justify this. For example, a player who is currently in the minors, has a minor league contract, isn't good enough to be on 40-man roster, and has never played in the majors or has not played in the majors over the past couple of seasons, should not be demanding a major league contract. Last edited by Charlie Hough; 02-19-2023 at 06:39 PM.

02-18-2023, 03:31 AM	#2
Garlon Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,252	1. I think this is in part due to when the Hook Starter and Hook Reliever settings got introduced in the league settings. I was against those being part of historicals. People complained about CG issues so that was introduced. I think that those settings should be left at default for all historical seasons. Those settings will often be in direct opposition to the Modifiers. This may cause issues. 2. That sounds like an issue with the financial system rather than a historical problem. 3. They need to find a way to get more players signed. Again, this is a problem with financials. 4. More financial system problems. 5. You are misunderstanding how the Modifiers work. Targeting CG is not really important. If you want to make CG your target you can do this from the engine file and weight CG at 100 and IPouts/GS at 1. There are also strategy settings involved with whether a pitcher gets a CG too. Keep in mind that pitching 26 vs 27 outs just to geta CG is not significant. If you make CG the most important thing for pitchers, you will create problems. 6. This should be fairly easy to correct. I will tell them that this needs to be improved. 7. More financial system problems. 8. More financial system problems.

02-19-2023, 09:47 PM	#5
Garlon Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,252	Please give a d as pacific example. I only okay historical games and I use vase stamina on career and the modifier is fine and the game results are fine. You can look up the IP per GS on baseball reference it in the game era stats file. 7 innings is 21 outs per game. When was the last season that SPs averaged that? We also have Relief pitcher IPouts per game and the game has a modifier for that too.