Negro League Roster issues

fmbugman · 04-11-2021, 04:41 PM

Can someone please explain why the Negro League rosters have some egregious errors. I am playing the 1921 Negro leagues and while it is early in the season the Columbus Buckeyes have posted a 1-24 record, They were 42-46 in real life. So why the disparity? A look at who is missing from their roster makes that abundantly clear. Hudspeth traded during the season is elsewhere as is Ed Rile. Those could be excused due to the limitations of the Negro league setup (no trades?!?!?!no finances ???? IMO it should be set up like the majors as MLB now recognizes maybe next version PLEASE!) But no John Henry Loyd?!??!? No Clint Thomas? OOTP says it gets its stats from Seamheads but how can these guys be missing then?

Cool Papa Bell · 04-17-2021, 04:07 PM

I wouldn't put too much stock into the accuracy of the Negro Leagues that are imported unfortunately. Not sure if any change was made to the statistical baseline of the Negro Leagues but out of the box so to speak it appears to be still based on a AAA or AA type of ratings.

As far as rosters, yeah there are many holes but I'm sure they are doing their best. It just hasn't been a high priority but more time I'm sure will be put into improving it. I have a 1920 quickstart that you can check out if you'd like. From my research it has pretty high accuracy on rosters (more or less they are 20 with small reserve rosters but NeL rosters were closer to 12 to 14 in those days max) as well as dates or births, facegen pictures, popularity, personality, etc. If you'd like to check out how it was built and what went into that, check out my Twitch videos, the link is in another post I made the other day.

thehef · 04-17-2021, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cool Papa Bell

I wouldn't put too much stock into the accuracy of the Negro Leagues that are imported unfortunately. Not sure if any change was made to the statistical baseline of the Negro Leagues but out of the box so to speak it appears to be still based on a AAA or AA type of ratings.

Just curious: I know that equating Negro Leagues as AA or AAA level is controversial. Still though, if they are all AA or AAA level but playing against each other, why would that make a difference? I can see why it would make a significant difference if NeLg teams are playing MLB teams, but if playing each other, it shouldn't. At least how I'm understanding it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cool Papa Bell

As far as rosters, yeah there are many holes but I'm sure they are doing their best. It just hasn't been a high priority but more time I'm sure will be put into improving it.

Yes, hopefully this will be among several improvements to historical that are needed:

- Negro Leagues improvements
- minor leagues (adding missing leagues/seasons)
- major leagues pre-1901

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cool Papa Bell

I have a 1920 quickstart that you can check out if you'd like. From my research it has pretty high accuracy on rosters (more or less they are 20 with small reserve rosters but NeL rosters were closer to 12 to 14 in those days max) as well as dates or births, facegen pictures, popularity, personality, etc. If you'd like to check out how it was built and what went into that, check out my Twitch videos, the link is in another post I made the other day.

Pelican · 04-18-2021, 11:04 AM

Understood that records on early Negro Leagues are sketchy, and competition (not to mention playing fields) was (were) uneven. But we do have years of post-season barnstorming matchups between black and white all-star teams, as a point of comparison. (I don’t know why more is not made of these games, which seem to have been highly competitive and well-attended. For most, there are full box scores, so the stats are there for the taking. Perhaps because the Negro League stars more than held their own, these outcomes were suppressed, as inconsistent with the racist myth that the black players were inferior.) Suffice to say that the best black players were as good as the best white players, period. There is, as has been said, much work to be done here. Seamheads has systematically provided years of missing stats. I have incorporated their numbers into my sims. Particularly during the Great Depression, when teams at all levels (and of all races) struggled financially, ending the color bar would have enhanced baseball and made MLB far more competitive. Not to mention pushing back against racism.

djc · 09-06-2023, 03:37 PM

Yeah I'm trying to make sense of the Negro League stats. Since they are an ongoing project in Seamheads it may take more time to get a more accurate assement of there actual talent level. I like that OOTP has placed them in between AAA and MLB. One thing I'm not sure of though is how those NeL players who probably of MLB caliper that start in the NeL can be promoted into the majors. One thing to consider is the work of Eric Chalek's MLE's (https://www.mlb.com/news/negro-leagu...-equivalencies)

04-11-2021, 04:41 PM	#1
fmbugman Bat Boy Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: San Diego Posts: 7	Negro League Roster issues Can someone please explain why the Negro League rosters have some egregious errors. I am playing the 1921 Negro leagues and while it is early in the season the Columbus Buckeyes have posted a 1-24 record, They were 42-46 in real life. So why the disparity? A look at who is missing from their roster makes that abundantly clear. Hudspeth traded during the season is elsewhere as is Ed Rile. Those could be excused due to the limitations of the Negro league setup (no trades?!?!?!no finances ???? IMO it should be set up like the majors as MLB now recognizes maybe next version PLEASE!) But no John Henry Loyd?!??!? No Clint Thomas? OOTP says it gets its stats from Seamheads but how can these guys be missing then?

04-17-2021, 04:07 PM	#2
Cool Papa Bell Major Leagues Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 415	I wouldn't put too much stock into the accuracy of the Negro Leagues that are imported unfortunately. Not sure if any change was made to the statistical baseline of the Negro Leagues but out of the box so to speak it appears to be still based on a AAA or AA type of ratings. As far as rosters, yeah there are many holes but I'm sure they are doing their best. It just hasn't been a high priority but more time I'm sure will be put into improving it. I have a 1920 quickstart that you can check out if you'd like. From my research it has pretty high accuracy on rosters (more or less they are 20 with small reserve rosters but NeL rosters were closer to 12 to 14 in those days max) as well as dates or births, facegen pictures, popularity, personality, etc. If you'd like to check out how it was built and what went into that, check out my Twitch videos, the link is in another post I made the other day. __________________ "About race, I'm going to say this. If you're green or purple or whatever color, you can play for me if I think you can help this ballclub.That's all I'm going to say about race." Leo Durocher, New York Giants manager, 1946

04-18-2021, 11:04 AM	#4
Pelican Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: Wilmington, Delaware Posts: 2,792 Blog Entries: 1	Negro League Player Ratings Understood that records on early Negro Leagues are sketchy, and competition (not to mention playing fields) was (were) uneven. But we do have years of post-season barnstorming matchups between black and white all-star teams, as a point of comparison. (I don’t know why more is not made of these games, which seem to have been highly competitive and well-attended. For most, there are full box scores, so the stats are there for the taking. Perhaps because the Negro League stars more than held their own, these outcomes were suppressed, as inconsistent with the racist myth that the black players were inferior.) Suffice to say that the best black players were as good as the best white players, period. There is, as has been said, much work to be done here. Seamheads has systematically provided years of missing stats. I have incorporated their numbers into my sims. Particularly during the Great Depression, when teams at all levels (and of all races) struggled financially, ending the color bar would have enhanced baseball and made MLB far more competitive. Not to mention pushing back against racism.

09-06-2023, 03:37 PM	#5
djc Minors (Single A) Join Date: Nov 2020 Posts: 55	Yeah I'm trying to make sense of the Negro League stats. Since they are an ongoing project in Seamheads it may take more time to get a more accurate assement of there actual talent level. I like that OOTP has placed them in between AAA and MLB. One thing I'm not sure of though is how those NeL players who probably of MLB caliper that start in the NeL can be promoted into the majors. One thing to consider is the work of Eric Chalek's MLE's (https://www.mlb.com/news/negro-leagu...-equivalencies)