Playing in pre-1871 years

[Patsy Tebeau]

I wanted to know if it'd be possible if I was able to play in years prior to 1871 using real players as opposed to fictional ones as it appears the only way to start prior to 1871 is in a fictional league. Is there a way I can just use random real players without having to import every single one of them one by one and just have it play like a historical sim without having it overcrowded with fake guys?

[Syd Thrift]

The DB has no stats prior to 1871 for obvious reasons. You could go on and modify the DB to get the (very scant and very unwieldy, and also very much unlike modern day baseball) stats in there yourself but I don’t expect OOTP to add much in that regard; I’d go so far as to say that OOTP would have been unable to model 1869 baseball prior to this year, the disparity in talent was so high. I have less than no idea how you’d work out league totals but that’s part of the project for whoever would undertake this…

[Patsy Tebeau]

I meant is there ways to have it use real players in say the 1850s just imported at random times. I'm not sure how that works and all but I have had it import players from random years prior to 1871 in a historic sim with random players because it gave me Bill Craver with his historical year set as 1866 as well as Edgar McNabb with his historic year as 1899, a year which he would have quite literally been dead for like 5 years by that point.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by Patsy Tebeau

I meant is there ways to have it use real players in say the 1850s just imported at random times. I'm not sure how that works and all but I have had it import players from random years prior to 1871 in a historic sim with random players because it gave me Bill Craver with his historical year set as 1866 as well as Edgar McNabb with his historic year as 1899, a year which he would have quite literally been dead for like 5 years by that point.

I doubt if its Craver's stats for 1866 as i am not aware of the game's database going back further than 1871.

It may be that with the random its giving you stats from his real 1871 year for 1866.
Like if you started a random league in 1920 and Barry Bonds was in the rookie class. I'm guessing his career stats would show up starting from 1920.
I would check Craver's reals stats from 1871 to what you are seeing for his first year in your random league.

[Patsy Tebeau]

I don't mean stats. I just meant that was their historical years. I'm asking if you can play with real players in years before 1871. Like if I did a fictional sim in 1857 could I have it with real players from any random year as opposed to fake guys only. Obviously the teams would be fake but I want real players on them. I don't care about historic stats as I prefer to have them blank. I was just wondering if you can't use real players in pre-1871 years then why can you end up with them having a historical year from before then as I mentioned with Craver or a historical year they weren't even alive in like McNabb

[Leo_The_Lip]

Short answer: Yes.

The earliest date you can start is January 1, 1800. I've done that several times to test. As others pointed out, you'll have to pick a stats year. I've always used 1876, the earliest date. I've only used fictional players, but there is no reason you can't select an era of real players to use.

I'm reading a book about the true origins of baseball (NYC and Hoboken, not Cooperstown!) and the true pioneers--Candy Cummings did not invent the curve ball.

I have used mis-matched eras for stats and players several times with interesting results. You will enjoy this, so go ahead!

[lightgrenade07]

For my fictional historical simulations, I typically start in the 1850s using 1871 stats until I progress to the actual year of 1871.

It's not historically perfect, but from the perspective of 2024, this captures the overall feel.

Why do I do this?

When I start my National League in 1871, I prefer to start with teams & players that have actual histories.

So the idea is, the teams & players that are around in 1871 aren't just spawning spontaneously. These teams & players had been in independent amateur leagues for about 15-20 years, before going on to form the first bona fide major league.

Of course, you could ask "Well, lightgrenade07, what about how you're spawning these teams & players in the 1850s?" And my answer to that is, I'm okay with that, because I'm trying to create an in-game origin story for major league baseball. It would be fun to create an in-game origin story for an older amateur league, but that's not my central focus to the extent that my fictionalized MLB is.

Not all of my response is applicable to your situation. However, parts of the above may apply - and if that's not the case, I do apologize. Either way, I will be following this discussion with interest.

[Leo_The_Lip]

How Baseball Happened: Outrageous Lies Exposed! The True Story Revealed by Thomas Gilbert

Well worth everyone's time, as it details the 'truth' of baseball's origins.

What you'll find is, there were no 'minor leagues'. Teams were called 'clubs' as in 'drinking clubs'. The players were doctors, firemen and policemen. they played for fun, not money. they were the middle class who had the leisure time to play. All the teams were based in Manhattan, and took the ferry to Hoboken to play games. No stadiums in Manhattan or elsewhere because no one watched the games except the players themselves.

So there were no real histories for the teams, they came and went until after the Civil War when baseball began to solidify.

There were no such things as 'leagues' and 'seasons'. If you had a free weekend you invited your friends in an other club to Hoboken's Elysian Fields for a game or two, followed by a feast, topped off with drinking.

The point for all was the feast and drinking, not the games.

I'm simplifying this excellent work of history, but do read it.

[thehef]

Some may already know of this, but others may not...

If interested in what teams were kicking around in the 15 or so years before the 1871 National Association, start with this: https://sabr.org/journal/article/185...ll-convention/

The complete list of pre-1900 Winter Meetings articles is here: https://sabr.org/journals/winter-meetings-v3-1857-1900/

Great resource if you want to get some of the actual teams names, a few of the players and other key folks, and some of the loose organizations...

[Patsy Tebeau]

oh I already know lots about pre-1871 ball which is why i was so interested in wanting to play in these years. I have a whole photopack of pre-1871 players that i just include in my sims by creating them but I also like using real 19th century players and guys from various other time periods to make it interesting since a bunch of fake guys just aren't appealing at all to me.

[Patsy Tebeau]

I have compiled a giant list of player names for pre-1871 teams that I found through doing my own research as well as protoball.org. Protoball has a lot of missing info and I emailed Bruce Allardice about this a year ago and so far all he had done was include maybe 3 or 4 images I sent him and keeps saying he'll get around to adding the names to the team pages but still never has. I asked if I could have editing access to the site and he told me no so I just included the stuff he left out on the BR Bullpen such as the list of pre-1871 Lansingburgh Unions, Brookyln Stars, Philadelphia A's, Cleveland Forest Citys, and a bunch of other clubs players.