Historical Leage - Players Coming in Early

[jdw]

Hi!

Ran into this for the first time in OOTP26. Most recently was playing OOTP 19, and various versions prior to that. Don't think I've seen it before, and likely hit a wrong setting in League Setup.

League started in 1970. Hadn't been paying close attention to this until the 1972 --> 1973 rollover.

10/24/1972 Signed with the Boston Red Sox.
90/104/74/49 Fred Lynn
65/50/63/30 Jim Rice
62/48/32/38 Rick Burleson

These four didn't play in the Majors until 1974. Lynn & Rice were famously rookies in 1975, with Sep callups in 1974 which OOTP always handles poorly anyway. Burleson had a full rookie campaign in 1974.

Setting are for a 3-year Recalc, so it seems likely that all the way back at the 1972 --> 1973 rollover, some setting has the game seeing their 1974 activity and bringing them in based on that... with Lynn now getting two "free" Hall of Fame seasons (1973 & 1974) when previously it was only the one (1974) that you had to worry about.

This appears to have happened just at This Rollover.

Looking at the team that I'm GM-Managing (the Dodgers), Ron Cey (1970 --> 1971 Rollover) & Davey Lopes (1971 --> 1972 rollover) came in their correct seasons.

In contrast, Rick Rhoden in real life came up in 1974. Yet here he is coming in on the 1972 --> 1973 rollover.

I started in 1970, so it's early enough to go backwards with some backups.

But...

Does anyone know what I might have hit wrong?

I have made minor adjustments while going along. For example, the game keeps resetting to 4 man bullpens in DH Leagues, or the old 5 Game LCS. So it's possible that I also hit something else.

Thanks!

[LansdowneSt]

Hmmmmm ... Not sure why or how this could happen.

I tried to replicate this but my Fred Lynn came in after the 1973 World Series as expected. The only thing I can think of is that minor leagues would be turned on (import and maintained) - so the game isn't seeing Lynn, et. al. in 1974 MLB but seeing him in the MiLB database in 1973. The toggle for that would be on this page, lower left but that would also (after the completion of the current season) have all the minor leagues set up for the team and that'd be hard to miss.

When you go to Lynn's player editor page, what year version of it is him and does that correspond to the year you are in (or about to enter if recalc occurred already) - left-hand side, middle of his editor page?

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

Hmmmmm ... Not sure why or how this could happen.

I tried to replicate this but my Fred Lynn came in after the 1973 World Series as expected. The only thing I can think of is that minor leagues would be turned on (import and maintained) - so the game isn't seeing Lynn, et. al. in 1974 MLB but seeing him in the MiLB database in 1973. The toggle for that would be on this page, lower left but that would also (after the completion of the current season) have all the minor leagues set up for the team and that'd be hard to miss.

When you go to Lynn's player editor page, what year version of it is him and does that correspond to the year you are in (or about to enter if recalc occurred already) - left-hand side, middle of his editor page?

Do the players import at the same time the game maintains the historical structure of the minor leagues? Was wondering if the import and maintain got turned on at some point, but turned off again prior to the game importing and maintaining the minor league teams/structure?

JDW did your reserve rosters(or fictional minor leagues) balloon in size following the 72 season?

[jdw]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

Hmmmmm ... Not sure why or how this could happen.

I tried to replicate this but my Fred Lynn came in after the 1973 World Series as expected. The only thing I can think of is that minor leagues would be turned on (import and maintained) - so the game isn't seeing Lynn, et. al. in 1974 MLB but seeing him in the MiLB database in 1973. The toggle for that would be on this page, lower left but that would also (after the completion of the current season) have all the minor leagues set up for the team and that'd be hard to miss.

When you go to Lynn's player editor page, what year version of it is him and does that correspond to the year you are in (or about to enter if recalc occurred already) - left-hand side, middle of his editor page?

Thanks again for the reply!

Minors isn't checked. Agree that it would be hard to miss.

For Lynn, Rice, Burleson and Rhoden & Zahn (on my own Dodgers), it is 1974. For players who were previously imported (like Hank Aaron & Ron Cey), it's 1973.

I wonder if I hit the Select Year on League Totals (i.e. Modifiers) during last season selecting 1972. Which I *would not* think would somehow jump things to 1974 Debuts in the Rollover. The Historical Year is still set at 1973.

I may just need to go back to the 1970 EOS Backup and redo 1971 & 1972. I know that the 1971 --> 1972 rollover worked, so as long as to the 1-3 tweaks that I made, things should be fine. Or just restore it and run quick season sims several years out to see if it happens again.

[jdw]

Originally Posted by David Watts

JDW did your reserve rosters(or fictional minor leagues) balloon in size following the 72 season?

Checking the "1973" Dodgers, these guys are "new". I place the year in front of them for the year they really debuted in the majors. All of these players in the editor show 1974 as the year, while previously brought in players are 1973.

1973 Geoff Zahn
1973 Eddie Solomon
1973 Greg Shanahan
1973 Orlando Álvarez

1974 Rick Rhoden
1974 Rex Hudson
1974 John Hale
1974 Iván de Jesús

These guys are a little interesting for Not being there:

1973 Jerry Royster (10 G / 19 PA in 1973 - 6 G / 0 PA in 1974)
1973 Greg Heydeman (only played 1 MLB game in 1973 / 0 PA - never played again)


1974 Kevin Pasley (1 G / 0 PA in 1974 - returned to MLB in 1976)

Heydeman doesn't matter if that's how OOTP normally deals with 0 Career PA players even if they got a game or more.

Pasley isn't terribly important, and again that might be how OOPT deals with 0 PA players and his correct OOTP "debut" season in 1976.

It's possible that I've never noticed that in OOTP, as *most* players like that aren't terrible relevant in specific seasons like that, and if they turn into anyone, OOTP catches them in a later season.

Royster is a potential problem if coming back in 1975 doesn't happen because it treats his 1973 PAs in an odd way.

[LansdowneSt]

So, on my screenshot, in the middle where it shows "1974" did you change that as one of the tweaks at any point? If so, the game may have read that it was time to bring in 1974 players. I know that isn't listed as an implied consequence of toggling it but I've never touched it to see what it does on days major things happen (like the offseason beginning and the game reading the database to being in players that debut. It's at least a hypothesis.

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

So, on my screenshot, in the middle where it shows "1974" did you change that as one of the tweaks at any point? If so, the game may have read that it was time to bring in 1974 players. I know that isn't listed as an implied consequence of toggling it but I've never touched it to see what it does on days major things happen (like the offseason beginning and the game reading the database to being in players that debut. It's at least a hypothesis.

This, if I had to guess, is almost definitely the cause. Somehow the year skipped 1973.

This field is problematic in a number of regards, from my experience. If you're adjusting the league totals, hitting TAB often takes you from At Bats to it. Plus, in the small type description underneath the field it mentions nothing about this also being the field that tells the game what year rookies to import next. It is actually a setting that controls a lot more than advertised.

So, in my book, it needs to be looked at by the devs because if you change it away from the actually "proper" game year, hinkyness often ensues.

G

[jdw]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

So, on my screenshot, in the middle where it shows "1974" did you change that as one of the tweaks at any point? If so, the game may have read that it was time to bring in 1974 players. I know that isn't listed as an implied consequence of toggling it but I've never touched it to see what it does on days major things happen (like the offseason beginning and the game reading the database to being in players that debut. It's at least a hypothesis.

Haven't changed that. It shows also shows correctly as 1973.

I think I just need to go back to that safe 1970 EOS back up.

* * * * *

While I have you, I *think* there might be some setting that doesn't so drastically link SIM to Real League Totals. By this I mean:

4.34 R/G 1970 Real Life
4.34 R/G 1970 SIM

3.89 R/G 1970 Real Life
3.98 R/G 1971 SIM

In theory, this is what one wants. Except:

1970 & 1971 Real Life are Non-DH in MLB
1970 & 1971 SIM are DH in *both* Leagues

It's been ages since I studied this, but my recollection is that the differences in R/G between the AL & NL was on average right around 0.40 R/G once the overwhelming majority of AL teams got more hip to using the DH advantageously. I.E. putting quality hitters in those spots. I want to say that was right around the end of the 1970s, as Don Baylor's MVP stuck into my head as lining up well with when the spike between the leagues largely stuck.

So both leagues having the DH, and OOTP's AI not being terrible at using the DH in an advantageous fashion, should result in higher run scoring in 1970 & 1971. Perhaps not around 0.40 R/G yet as there might be a lack if hitters to stock the DH to that 0.40 R/G jump. But... something better than the exact match and the near-match reflected in the numbers above.

On the flip side, I've haven't looked to adjust for that as I haven't wanted to bork things (which I did). But I really don't want runs suppressed due to the Engine over-tying R/G to non-DH totals.

Any suggestions?

[LansdowneSt]

R/G usually runs a little hot even with auto-calc on. On the historical accuracy tab, see what your sim did (even with Lynn!). Here was the one that failed to replicate but shows what you can expect with auto-calc on.

[jdw]

R/G
1970: +0.1%
1971: +2.2%
1972: +18.4%

1972 driven largely by HR (+15.5%), BB (+8.8%), BA (+5.4%), and an underperform on K's (-7.8%).

Yeah... I had to have borked something in the 1972 season, likely in the preseason for that strong of an impact.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by luckymann

This, if I had to guess, is almost definitely the cause. Somehow the year skipped 1973.

This field is problematic in a number of regards, from my experience. If you're adjusting the league totals, hitting TAB often takes you from At Bats to it. Plus, in the small type description underneath the field it mentions nothing about this also being the field that tells the game what year rookies to import next. It is actually a setting that controls a lot more than advertised.

So, in my book, it needs to be looked at by the devs because if you change it away from the actually "proper" game year, hinkyness often ensues.

G

Crazy thing is, if you're playing a random debut in which you have the game locked into a certain year, for example 1984, you pretty much have to change that setting to 1984 each year prior to the opening day(I usually do so on the first day of preseason), or the game will continue to progress strategy wise on a yearly basis. At some point you will end up with starting pitchers going 4.1 innings like the they do today. This happens even when the game is still using 6 man bullpens.

[jdw]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Crazy thing is, if you're playing a random debut in which you have the game locked into a certain year, for example 1984, you pretty much have to change that setting to 1984 each year prior to the opening day(I usually do so on the first day of preseason), or the game will continue to progress strategy wise on a yearly basis. At some point you will end up with starting pitchers going 4.1 innings like the they do today. This happens even when the game is still using 6 man bullpens.

I think one can turn off the changes in strategy. It's in Historical on the Left Side, third from the bottom.

I suspect Stamina will eventually impact it anyway so that it would be impossible to have 70s or even 80s style starting pitching into the 2020s. I don't know if the game can adjust for it.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by jdw

I think one can turn off the changes in strategy. It's in Historical on the Left Side, third from the bottom.

I suspect Stamina will eventually impact it anyway so that it would be impossible to have 70s or even 80s style starting pitching into the 2020s. I don't know if the game can adjust for it.

Even with them locked, the game will continue to evolve until complete games evaporate.

[jdw]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Even with them locked, the game will continue to evolve until complete games evaporate.

Yeah, I think it's the Recalc. Declining IP slowly (then quite rapidly) carving up Stamina. Probably more than OOTP Strategy and instead due to Real Life Stats.

I haven't played a Fictional League in probably 15+ years. If one were to set it up in the Boom or Defensive Eras, and have it not "change", will the strategy stay the same and the new Draft Classes have appropriate ratings (and of course development) to sustain that strat?

[luckymann]

The field I was referring to is in the STATS & AI tab, and I believe is a duplicate of the one in the HISTORICAL tab to cater for "fictional" or non-recalc saves. Did you perhaps manually enter any league totals?

[Lukas Berger]

Did you change the draft date at all? Sometimes moving the draft date up to a date that comes before the change over to a new season can result in a year getting skipped, or players coming in early.

(Apologies if you mentioned above you did or did not do this, I did not read through every post here)

[jdw]

Originally Posted by Lukas Berger

Did you change the draft date at all? Sometimes moving the draft date up to a date that comes before the change over to a new season can result in a year getting skipped, or players coming in early.

(Apologies if you mentioned above you did or did not do this, I did not read through every post here)

No draft. Players are automatically assigned to the team they debut with.

I must have changed something accidentally. I ended up simply going back to my 1970 EOS to play forward. But that one ended up getting the 3D error in 1972 mentioned in the other thread, even after an uninstall & reinstall.