Dante Culpepper Sucks / Evaluating QB's - Page 6

sebastian0622 · 11-27-2005, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skipaway

Owens' talent plus the coaches recognized how many more things they can do in the passing game with Owens?

If you argue that, the coaches realizing that is a direct result of Owens. Without Owens, they wouldn't be able to do those things. So it's all Owens' impact.

Skipaway · 11-27-2005, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

If you argue that, the coaches realizing that is a direct result of Owens. Without Owens, they wouldn't be able to do those things. So it's all Owens' impact.

But you could see it's coaches calculating how Owens would fit in with other players. It's about the fit, not the individual impact. So essentially, I am trying to say it's not really adding one dimentional numbers, but rather like adding vectors.

Skipaway · 11-27-2005, 07:14 PM

Think about boundary conditions: if a team never passes before Owens, because it got no wide reciever. If they got Owens today, the coach can either believe the old system is better, and Owens would get no impact whatsoever, or the team would redesign the whole scheme and see a huge boost in passer ratings.

Coach is definitely a huge factor, regardless of what Owen's talent really is.

bagsangels · 11-28-2005, 08:03 AM

i like dorsey.

SWardle · 12-09-2005, 02:59 PM

Gee, I wonder how Kerry Collins season has gone this year? I seem to remember some raving lunatic talking about how SUPER Collins would do this year. How he'd have a CAREER year with Randy Moss.

Low and behold, Collins is benched for the rest of the season on a craptastic team. Way to nail another one on the head, buddy!

Steve-O

Jonzard · 12-09-2005, 03:00 PM

Roffle

sebastian0622 · 12-09-2005, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SWardle

Gee, I wonder how Kerry Collins season has gone this year? I seem to remember some raving lunatic talking about how SUPER Collins would do this year. How he'd have a CAREER year with Randy Moss.

Low and behold, Collins is benched for the rest of the season on a craptastic team. Way to nail another one on the head, buddy!

Steve-O

Collins has a QB rating this season of 79.6, or 6 points higher than his career average and 4 points higher than last season.

That Collins is being benched shows that the expectation is that a QB with Randy Moss will do much better than "just" 5 points higher in QB rating, although 5 points is a lot in QB rating (difference between #6 and #13 QB's this year).

Basically, Collins has played horribly enough to get benched, Moss has been hurt, and Collins STILL has a rating significantly higher than his career average and 3rd highest of his career. I guess I fail to see how this hurts my argument.

12-10-2005, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

Basically, Collins has played horribly enough to get benched, Moss has been hurt, and Collins STILL has a rating significantly higher than his career average and 3rd highest of his career. I guess I fail to see how this hurts my argument.

Wasn't Moss hurt last year as well? So I guess Culpepper is off the hook for last year since you're using it as an excuse for Collins. So, Culpepper basically had his best season of his career without Randy Moss. It was all C-Pep. That kinda dings your argument does it not?

Luis_Rivera · 12-10-2005, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

Basically, Collins has played horribly enough to get benched

Whoever is behind this decision is foolish. Kerry Collins has been an above average QB this year.

The Raiders really aren't that bad of a team. They're victims of the toughest schedule in the league to this point... mostly due to playing in a division with 3 of the ten best teams in the league. Unfortunately, Collins is going to be the scapegoat for this... even though he's been above average statistically.

sebastian0622 · 12-10-2005, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avwjase

Wasn't Moss hurt last year as well? So I guess Culpepper is off the hook for last year since you're using it as an excuse for Collins. So, Culpepper basically had his best season of his career without Randy Moss. It was all C-Pep. That kinda dings your argument does it not?

An excuse? I said Collins is playing poorly enough to get benched, so it doesn't sound like an excuse. The deal is that you don't have to make excuses for Collins' play, because he's not playing poorly.

Read that again. The deal is that, in this case, "poorly enough to get benched" does not mean that he's playing poorly. It just means that people expect a whole lot more than one of the best seasons of Collins career, and they expect that just because he has Moss, even if it's an injured Moss.

Moss this year and Moss last year have still had significant impacts despite injuries. You seem to be forgetting that Moss caught 1/3rd of Daunte's TD's last year (13 of 39), which was a greater proportion than Harrison to Manning (15 of 49). But yes, both C-Pep last year and Collins this year would be better off with a healthy Moss. I don't see what's provacative about that statement.

Anyway, all of these weird semantic hoops that you're trying to jump through aside, the bottom line is that Collins is having one of the best years of his career with Moss against a very, very tough schedule while Culpepper sucked ass.

Jason Moyer · 12-10-2005, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

That Collins is being benched shows that the expectation is that a QB with Randy Moss will do much better than "just" 5 points higher in QB rating, although 5 points is a lot in QB rating (difference between #6 and #13 QB's this year).

Do you seriously believe pro football coaches care about QB rating?

sebastian0622 · 12-10-2005, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

Do you seriously believe pro football coaches care about QB rating?

I believe that it is a pretty good quick measure of a particular facet of the game similar to OPS in baseball. It's rare for a coach to bench a QB playing as well as Collins is, regardless of how you measure it.

12-10-2005, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

I believe that it is a pretty good quick measure of a particular facet of the game similar to OPS in baseball. It's rare for a coach to bench a QB playing as well as Collins is, regardless of how you measure it.

QB Rating is about worthless if you ask me. Last year there were games where Big Ben had 1 TD Pass and 150 yards passing, yet had a perfect rating. Yet Manning would throw 5 TD's and somehow he didn't have a perfect rating for that game. Any fool would take the 5 TD day over a 1 TD day, yet if you go strictly by rating it would leave you to believe that Big Ben had the better game.

With that said, Collins has hardly played good this year. He's had two good games, two ok games and the rest of the time he's been pretty damn bad. This with what many believed was one of the best offenses in the league. His two 3 TD days are the crutch keeping his QB rating you keep harping about so high.

Jase

12-10-2005, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

Do you seriously believe pro football coaches care about QB rating?

Well, of course they do! That's why most of your football almanacs don't even keep records of QB rating! It's such a vital statistic!

sebastian0622 · 12-11-2005, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avwjase

His two 3 TD days are the crutch keeping his QB rating you keep harping about so high.

Jase

Uh yeah. His two 3-TD games plus his three 2-TD games (which is pretty good--2 each game puts a QB on pace for 32) yeah...um, totally isolated. Yeah.

Skipaway · 12-11-2005, 10:01 AM

So what's the real impact of Randy Moss now? 20 points or 5 points?

sebastian0622 · 12-11-2005, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skipaway

So what's the real impact of Randy Moss now? 20 points or 5 points?

I still think it's 15-20, not 5. Collins is 5 points better this year and he's being benched, so I think the coaches are expecting more. Wonder how Tui will do.

cinredsfan2000 · 12-11-2005, 02:46 PM

PLAYER STATISTICS
Raiders ( 4-8-0 ) Jets ( 2-10-0 )
PASSING
CP/AT YDS TD INT
M. Tuiasosopo 6/15 48 0 1

in the 1st half.

sebastian0622 · 12-11-2005, 03:01 PM

Damn, he's tearing it up! The Jets do have a very good pass defense.

So, how long until Collins plays again? I'm thinking somewhere between five minutes and one week.

twins15 · 12-11-2005, 03:17 PM

But wait, shouldn't Moss be making Tuiasosopo 20 points better?

11-27-2005, 07:14 PM	#103
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	Think about boundary conditions: if a team never passes before Owens, because it got no wide reciever. If they got Owens today, the coach can either believe the old system is better, and Owens would get no impact whatsoever, or the team would redesign the whole scheme and see a huge boost in passer ratings. Coach is definitely a huge factor, regardless of what Owen's talent really is. __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

12-09-2005, 03:00 PM	#106
Jonzard Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,647	Roffle __________________ For a scientist must indeed be freely imaginative and yet skeptical, creative and yet a critic. There is a sense in which he must be free, but another in which his thought must be very precisely regimented; there is poetry in science, but also a lot of bookkeeping. — Sir Peter B. Medawar FTB

12-11-2005, 10:01 AM	#116
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	So what's the real impact of Randy Moss now? 20 points or 5 points? __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

12-11-2005, 03:17 PM	#120
twins15 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Area 51 Posts: 4,792	But wait, shouldn't Moss be making Tuiasosopo 20 points better? __________________ "Ah man we're just hungry man" - Dovonte Edwards Bismarck Boy Scouts of the OTBL - league yes-man Ross Gload at baseball-reference.com Book Quotes and Book Lists

11-28-2005, 08:03 AM	#104
bagsangels Major Leagues Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 332	i like dorsey.

12-09-2005, 02:59 PM	#105
SWardle Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Seeking my El Dorado Posts: 548 Infractions: 0/1 (4)	Gee, I wonder how Kerry Collins season has gone this year? I seem to remember some raving lunatic talking about how SUPER Collins would do this year. How he'd have a CAREER year with Randy Moss. Low and behold, Collins is benched for the rest of the season on a craptastic team. Way to nail another one on the head, buddy! Steve-O

12-11-2005, 03:01 PM	#119
sebastian0622 Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,465	Damn, he's tearing it up! The Jets do have a very good pass defense. So, how long until Collins plays again? I'm thinking somewhere between five minutes and one week.