What the Heck

David Watts · 02-03-2023, 08:29 AM

So I play out 1946, I have the game set so rookies go to their original teams, no draft. This is where it gets strange. I get to opening day 1947. Larry Doby is a Red, wth? Hank Thompson is with the Senators, huh? Jackie Robinson is a free agent. All three of these players went to the correct team to begin with, but about a month later each one of them was released. Doby and Thompson signed with other teams, Robinson a week into the season remains unsigned. Why would this happen? Oh and I'm not using historical minors.

Brad K · 02-03-2023, 09:07 AM

Bad programming of AI.

David Watts · 02-03-2023, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad K

Bad programming of AI.

I'm wondering if it has something to do with the color barrier rule not being disabled correctly? If it's still in effect when the rookies are assigned to the correct teams, would the AI then release the players thinking they aren't eligible? Then the rule gets turned off for 47 and the players get scooped up. Still doesn't explain why Robinson hasn't been signed.

LansdowneSt · 02-03-2023, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

I'm wondering if it has something to do with the color barrier rule not being disabled correctly? If it's still in effect when the rookies are assigned to the correct teams, would the AI then release the players thinking they aren't eligible? Then the rule gets turned off for 47 and the players get scooped up. Still doesn't explain why Robinson hasn't been signed.

Also not using Historical Transactions, I presume.

Did the releases from their original/proper teams all occur on the same day or did each team release them on different days? I ask trying to think if there was a hidden event trigger that borked it or something else. The fact you are not using the Historical Minors at least narrows it for the developers to look at when they see this. May want to put on the Historical Database bug thread with a link here.

David Watts · 02-03-2023, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

Also not using Historical Transactions, I presume.

Did the releases from their original/proper teams all occur on the same day or did each team release them on different days? I ask trying to think if there was a hidden event trigger that borked it or something else. The fact you are not using the Historical Minors at least narrows it for the developers to look at when they see this. May want to put on the Historical Database bug thread with a link here.

Will have to check the release date when I get home. Didn't think to look whether they all happened on the same day.

Brad K · 02-03-2023, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

Will have to check the release date when I get home. Didn't think to look whether they all happened on the same day.

I didn't think of that. If they did happen on the same day I'd say its not bad AI as I suggested earlier.

Charlie Hough · 02-03-2023, 06:13 PM

I've seen some strange releases in my recent historical games as well, plus some really bad waiver transactions that made no sense relative to the player's talent or contract.

One example was Toronto not offering arbitration and letting Alfredo Griffin become a free agent in 1980. He had just played in 152 games as a starter with very solid stats, a small contract demand, and better ratings than anyone else at the position in the organization.

Another example was San Francisco waiving Larry Herndon right before the first season of my simulation, which began in 1980. Herndon had similarly strong ratings, an inexpensive contract, and was significantly better than two other outfielders that the Giants chose to keep on the main roster. Herndon was promptly claimed off waivers, costing the Giants a valuable player.

The AI also released Milt Wilcox right after I had signed him to a minor league deal with a major league option. For some reason, all of MLB passed on Wilcox despite him having solid ratings and coming off a 16-win season. So I signed him and assigned him to AAA, with a plan to use him if I had an injury in the rotation or performance issues. But the AI then released him, and I had to reverse that move and put him back on the roster.

thehef · 02-03-2023, 08:36 PM

This looks to me to be quite similar to an issue that was discussed early last year, reported as a bug, and supposedly fixed. It might be that some remnants of the issue remain... Checking...

EDIT: pstrickert has updated this in the bug reports forum.

sharknut · 02-04-2023, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

The AI also released Milt Wilcox right after I had signed him to a minor league deal with a major league option. For some reason, all of MLB passed on Wilcox despite him having solid ratings and coming off a 16-win season. So I signed him and assigned him to AAA, with a plan to use him if I had an injury in the rotation or performance issues. But the AI then released him, and I had to reverse that move and put him back on the roster.

Holy crap, get this.

I am running a 1970 California Angels sim and I am up to 1976 now. This morning, the Reds DFA'd 26 year old Milt Wilcox coming off a 13-win season with a 3.32 ERA.

I wonder if it's a Milt Wilcox issue across the entire game.

Charlie Hough · 02-05-2023, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharknut

I wonder if it's a Milt Wilcox issue across the entire game.

Haha. I'd say that Milt might be ready to fire his agent. But, in all seriousness, I think OOTP undervalues some players like Wilcox who often perform quite well but whose ratings and pitch ratings are not as obviously strong.

However, getting back to the core issue at hand, the AI is also inconsistent with its evaluations. For example, after spending one season in AAA in my game, Wilcox was selected in the Rule 5 draft. I left him unprotected because his ratings were starting to decline, but the AI didn't hesitate to select him in the first round. However, one year previously, the same AI teams had let him languish as an unsigned free agent for the entire off-season, even though he was eventually willing to sign a minor league contract with an MLB option. It did the exact same thing with Dan Spellner, another pitcher that I signed to a similar contract and then left unprotected one year later.

Brad K · 02-06-2023, 07:14 PM

I think part of the problem here may be that the program makes some GMs not as smart as others. Considering the max they can to with a GM this makes the dumb ones really dumb.

I'd be in favor of a system where all GMs by default are as good as possible and then them being not quite as good be part of a "help human" switch.

Charlie Hough · 02-14-2023, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad K

I think part of the problem here may be that the program makes some GMs not as smart as others.

I wasn't aware of this, but if the game actually goes this, then it doesn't make GM smartness relative to trade difficulty. If you maximize trade difficulty, virtually every AI GM plays it extremely smart and is almost never dumb. If you're going to make some GMs smarter or dumber than others, then it should have effects even if AI trade difficulty is higher or lower.

We need an overall GM intelligence slider that works like trade difficulty but is applied to all areas of roster management, free agency, waivers. etc. That would help eliminate dumb moves that give the human GM an unfair advantage or require house rules or commissioner mode interventions to fix them.

02-03-2023, 08:29 AM	#1
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 9,598 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	What the Heck So I play out 1946, I have the game set so rookies go to their original teams, no draft. This is where it gets strange. I get to opening day 1947. Larry Doby is a Red, wth? Hank Thompson is with the Senators, huh? Jackie Robinson is a free agent. All three of these players went to the correct team to begin with, but about a month later each one of them was released. Doby and Thompson signed with other teams, Robinson a week into the season remains unsigned. Why would this happen? Oh and I'm not using historical minors.

02-03-2023, 09:07 AM	#2
Brad K Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,656 Infractions: 0/2 (3)	Bad programming of AI. __________________ . Pirates Play Moneyball 1951-2008 Ratings and League Totals Modifiers A new pre-calc file! (Applause!) Settings and Auto-calc Popular Opinions and Undisputable Facts The cover up is usually more damaging than the original act.

02-03-2023, 06:13 PM	#7
Charlie Hough Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,640	I've seen some strange releases in my recent historical games as well, plus some really bad waiver transactions that made no sense relative to the player's talent or contract. One example was Toronto not offering arbitration and letting Alfredo Griffin become a free agent in 1980. He had just played in 152 games as a starter with very solid stats, a small contract demand, and better ratings than anyone else at the position in the organization. Another example was San Francisco waiving Larry Herndon right before the first season of my simulation, which began in 1980. Herndon had similarly strong ratings, an inexpensive contract, and was significantly better than two other outfielders that the Giants chose to keep on the main roster. Herndon was promptly claimed off waivers, costing the Giants a valuable player. The AI also released Milt Wilcox right after I had signed him to a minor league deal with a major league option. For some reason, all of MLB passed on Wilcox despite him having solid ratings and coming off a 16-win season. So I signed him and assigned him to AAA, with a plan to use him if I had an injury in the rotation or performance issues. But the AI then released him, and I had to reverse that move and put him back on the roster. Last edited by Charlie Hough; 02-05-2023 at 05:35 PM.

02-03-2023, 08:36 PM	#8
thehef Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,345	This looks to me to be quite similar to an issue that was discussed early last year, reported as a bug, and supposedly fixed. It might be that some remnants of the issue remain... Checking... EDIT: pstrickert has updated this in the bug reports forum. Last edited by thehef; 02-03-2023 at 10:31 PM. Reason: update

02-06-2023, 07:14 PM	#11
Brad K Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,656 Infractions: 0/2 (3)	I think part of the problem here may be that the program makes some GMs not as smart as others. Considering the max they can to with a GM this makes the dumb ones really dumb. I'd be in favor of a system where all GMs by default are as good as possible and then them being not quite as good be part of a "help human" switch. __________________ . Pirates Play Moneyball 1951-2008 Ratings and League Totals Modifiers A new pre-calc file! (Applause!) Settings and Auto-calc Popular Opinions and Undisputable Facts The cover up is usually more damaging than the original act.