Thread for player identification in team photos

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

The April 3rd 1913 edition of the Pittsburgh Press lists the final Spring batting averages for the Pirates including some 'unknowns' and some surprises. Reuther is listed but I can't find Dutch Ruether in the image. Also players by the names of Holderman, C. Miller and Senuessler. C. MIller could be either Charlier Miller or Chuck Miller.

"Ruether" is named in the papers as Harry Ruether. Dutch Ruether was Walter Henry Ruether, so he must have been in the Pirates' camp. I've pasted below newspaper images from the spring of 1913 of Charley Miller (third from the left in the group of four), Fred Schuessler (fourth from the left), and J.W. Holderman (portrait).

[UKBaseballfan]

Wonderful research, thank you so much!

On the basis of the images you have supplied and that there is no evidence King Cole attended Spring Training or indeed represented the Pirates in 1913 I have moved Conzelman from the middle row to the back row where I originally proposed Cole. In Conzelman's previous place I have inserted Schuessler.

J.W.Holderman, listed as Jake Holderman by B-R, suggest in the middle row between Mamaux and now Schuessler. Charlie Miller possibly on the extreme right of the bottom row.

The player in the bottom row between Hofman and Butler with Adams hands placed on his shoulders does appear to have a noticeable chin dimple. Could that be a young Dutch Ruether?

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Wonderful research, thank you so much!

On the basis of the images you have supplied and that there is no evidence King Cole attended Spring Training or indeed represented the Pirates in 1913 I have moved Conzelman from the middle row to the back row where I originally proposed Cole. In Conzelman's previous place I have inserted Schuessler.

J.W.Holderman, listed as Jake Holderman by B-R, suggest in the middle row between Mamaux and now Schuessler. Charlie Miller possibly on the extreme right of the bottom row.

The player in the bottom row between Hofman and Butler with Adams hands placed on his shoulders does appear to have a noticeable chin dimple. Could that be a young Dutch Ruether?

I agree with your placements of Conzelman, Schuessler, Holderman, and Miller, and also Bisland and O'Toole. To me, the player in the bottom row to the right of Hofman is not a good match for Dutch Ruether; in particular the eyes don't seem to match (though the player in this photo is squinting, so I can't be certain). I have attached an image of Ruether at a young age and another group photo of the 1913 Pirates that includes Ruether, in the back row with the white cap near the right end. I don't have an alternative suggestion for the player next to Hofman.

[RUKen]

I have found and attached to this post additional images from The Pittsburgh Press of the Pirates in spring training (March 1913) at Hot Springs, grouped by position, including an unedited copy of the infielders. I have also attached the group photo that we've been discussing, to make it easier to compare the images. See my previous post for my thoughts on the other proposed IDs.

I believe that the player in the bottom row, fourth from the left, is Stanley Gray. He is in the newspaper photo of the pitchers, in the back row, far right. Although his face is dark in that image, it appears to be a reasonable match to the player with Babe Adams' hands on his shoulders.

You had identified the player in the bottom row, second from the right, as Gray. I believe instead that the player is Ralph Capron, who was in the Pirates' camp for the first few weeks of March, before being sold to the Phillies. Capron is in the newspaper photo of the outfielders, back row, second from the left.

I do not yet have an ID for the man sitting third from the right in the bottom row, but from his apparent age he is probably a coach.

[UKBaseballfan]

Thank you for the additional images.

I have attached the exemplar I have used for Stan Gray in attempting to locate him in the image. As I described previously the player in question in the bottom row supporting Adams hands appears to have a noticeable chin dimple. I don't see that in the Gray image.

Yes, I agree about the other unidientified older player as being a coach. I also believe the identification of Warner is not likely to be correct as it was based on the image being dated from the previous year. Studying the Corsairs outfield image you posted, particularly the expression on Rehg's face, he looks a match for the player I previously had as Warner, on Art Butler's left.

I like the idea of Capron being present in the image and the place you suggest looks an excellent match. I prefer Gray where I previously had Rehg, on the coach's right.

Also attached a colorized image of Wally Rehg.

Mike Joyce pictured in one of the images above is a candidate to be present in the team photo.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Thank you for the additional images.

I have attached the exemplar I have used for Stan Gray in attempting to locate him in the image. As I described previously the player in question in the bottom row supporting Adams hands appears to have a noticeable chin dimple. I don't see that in the Gray image.

Yes, I agree about the other unidentified older player as being a coach. I also believe the identification of Warner is not likely to be correct as it was based on the image being dated from the previous year. Studying the Corsairs outfield image you posted, particularly the expression on Rehg's face, he looks a match for the player I previously had as Warner, on Art Butler's left.

I like the idea of Capron being present in the image and the place you suggest looks an excellent match. I prefer Gray where I previously had Rehg, on the coach's right.

Also attached a colorized image of Wally Rehg.

Mike Joyce pictured in one of the images above is a candidate to be present in the team photo.

OK; I agree now with respect to Gray and Rehg, and also Mamaux. I still disagree about the player fourth from left in the bottom row; I don't think Ruether is a good match, despite the chin cleft. It could be Mike Joyce; I've attached below the only two newspaper images I've found of him, and one photo of Ruether.

[UKBaseballfan]

I agree that Joyce appears to be a better match than Ruether.

Thank you it appears that the identification process is complete, subject to critical review from other interested parties.

This surely is a textbook example of the process involved in team photo player identification.

A number of features have been present to enable this to happen which often are not present or available.

Firstly a very clear version of the team photo to be analysed.

Secondly available information from which to acquire additional information.

Thirdly the restricted time period of just one year in respect of the image being analysed.

Fourthly an appreciation that the visual history baseball year differs from the calendar year. The baseball visual year as depicted by uniforms starts on opening day and ends on the last day of spring training in the following year.

Fifthly start the process by placing and naming familiar identities and gradually reduce the options for each player remaining in the 'jigsaw'.

Finally it is a process that can be undertaken on your own but much better to have an accomplice so that you can bounce ides off each other. I guess 3 is the ideal number but I am sure that 4 is workable. More than that it may become cumbersome. It is always beneficial to have an 'authority' in the background if matters grind to a halt.

I guess now we need to reach a similar conclusion in respect of the first 1912 Pirates Spring Training image posted. In connection with that please find below an additional colorized version, perhaps not so clear, by BSmile of that same image.

[UKBaseballfan]

Colorization by BSmile.

The following identifications minus 3 highly questionable names are provided on net54baseball.com

Top row (l-r)

Bill Keen, Howie Camnitz, Al Kellogg, Mickey Keliher, Raymond Haley, Hal Grover, Bill McKechnie, Cliff Averett, Lefty Leifield, Billy Kelly, Ray Jansen, Bruce Noel, Hank Robinson, George Gibson, Ham Hyatt, Butts Wagner

Middle Row

Tommy Leach, Max Carey, Alex McCarthy, Bobby Byrne, Babe Adams, Fred Clarke, Barney Dreyfuss, Sam Watters, Honus Wagner, Marty O'Toole, Claude Hendrix, Mike Simon

Bottom Row

Chief Wilson, Dots Miller, Wally Rehg, Ralph Capron, Mike Donlin, Jack Ferry, Jim Viox, Everett Booe, Bill Irving, Harry Gardner, Ona Dodd

Apparently the Pittsburgh Press edition of 17th March 1912 lists the 33 players invited to spring training.

[UKBaseballfan]

As things stand there are 13 x's in the identifications.

Early April editions of the 1912 Pittsburgh Press mention conveniently 13 names as yet included in the identifications :- Lefty Leifield, Billy Kelly, Ray Haley, Harry Gardner, Albert Kellog, Ray Jansen, Harold Grover, Everett Booe, Ona Dodd, Bruce Noel, Rebel Keen, Mickey Kelliher and Ralph Capron.

Posted before I accessed the image below.

So far no evidence that King Cole who has been identified in the team photo was present in Spring Training so that could increase the number of vacancies to 14.

Also no evidence that Ed Mensor was present in Spring Training, vacancies up to 15.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

1912 Pittsburgh Pirates

Apparently the Pittsburgh Press edition of 17th March 1912 lists the 33 players invited to spring training.

I have attached the roster from the Pittsburgh Press of 17 March 1912, and a group photo from that same newspaper on 19 March 1912, with player IDs. (It is not the same image that you have posted, but it confirms who was in camp in mid-March.)

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

As things stand there are 13 x's in the identifications.

So far no evidence that King Cole who has been identified in the team photo was present in Spring Training so that could increase the number of vacancies to 14.

Cole was a member of the Chicago Cubs until May 30th of 1912, so he cannot be in the Pirates' spring training photo. Artie Hofman was also in that trade, so he cannot be in the spring training photo, either.

[rlumpkin1@tampabay.rr.com]

Trying to figure out who is who. 1997 St. Pete Devil Rays

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by RUKen

Cole was a member of the Chicago Cubs until May 30th of 1912, so he cannot be in the Pirates' spring training photo. Artie Hofman was also in that trade, so he cannot be in the spring training photo, either.

1912 Pittsburgh Pirates spring training

The following players were included in the 19 March Pittsburgh Press photo of the team, but not identified in the other team photo:

Bill Irving (OF), Harry Gardner (P), Bruce Noel (P), Bill Kelly (C), Everett Booe (OF), Cliff Averett (P), Ona Dodd (IF), Rebel Keen (1B), Howie Camnitz (P), Hal Grover (P), Mickey Keliher (1B), Ray Jansen (IF), and Ray Haley (C). There was also a man named V.D. Nirella in the photo without a position indicated; perhaps he was associated with the team in some off-field aspect. (Edited to add: Nirella was a band leader whose musicians provided entertainment for the players at Hot Springs.)

For the time being, I am assuming that Cole and Hofman are the only misidentified players, but we may need to revisit that assumption.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by RUKen

1912 Pittsburgh Pirates spring training

The following players were included in the 19 March Pittsburgh Press photo of the team, but not identified in the other team photo:

Bill Irving (OF), Harry Gardner (P), Bruce Noel (P), Bill Kelly (C), Everett Booe (OF), Cliff Averett (P), Ona Dodd (IF), Rebel Keen (1B), Howie Camnitz (P), Hal Grover (P), Mickey Keliher (1B), Ray Jansen (IF), and Ray Haley (C).

I am posting images of the players named above.

Bill Irving
Harry Gardner
Bruce Noel
Bill Kelly

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by RUKen

1912 Pittsburgh Pirates spring training

The following players were included in the 19 March Pittsburgh Press photo of the team, but not identified in the other team photo:

Bill Irving (OF), Harry Gardner (P), Bruce Noel (P), Bill Kelly (C), Everett Booe (OF), Cliff Averett (P), Ona Dodd (IF), Rebel Keen (1B), Howie Camnitz (P), Hal Grover (P), Mickey Keliher (1B), Ray Jansen (IF), and Ray Haley (C).

I am posting images of the players named above.

Cliff Averett
Ona Dodd
Rebel Keen
Everett Booe

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by RUKen

1912 Pittsburgh Pirates spring training

The following players were included in the 19 March Pittsburgh Press photo of the team, but not identified in the other team photo:

Bill Irving (OF), Harry Gardner (P), Bruce Noel (P), Bill Kelly (C), Everett Booe (OF), Cliff Averett (P), Ona Dodd (IF), Rebel Keen (1B), Howie Camnitz (P), Hal Grover (P), Mickey Keliher (1B), Ray Jansen (IF), and Ray Haley (C).

I am posting images of the players named above.

Howie Camnitz
Hal Grover
Mickey Keliher
Ray Jansen
Ray Haley

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

1912 Pittsburgh Pirates spring training

The following players were included in the 19 March Pittsburgh Press photo of the team, but not identified in the other team photo:

Bill Irving (OF), Harry Gardner (P), Bruce Noel (P), Bill Kelly (C), Everett Booe (OF), Cliff Averett (P), Ona Dodd (IF), Rebel Keen (1B), Howie Camnitz (P), Hal Grover (P), Mickey Keliher (1B), Ray Jansen (IF), and Ray Haley (C). There was also a man named V.D. Nirella in the photo without a position indicated; perhaps he was associated with the team in some off-field aspect. (Edited to add: Nirella was a band leader whose musicians provided entertainment for the players at Hot Springs.)

For the time being, I am assuming that Cole and Hofman are the only misidentified players, but we may need to revisit that assumption.

Ed Mensor appears to be a third misidentified player as he does not seem to be present in Spring Training.

Ralph Capron and Al Kellogg did participate in Spring Training but were not included in the list or the photo.

Although not included in the photo, Lefty Leifield was included in the list of players above the photo.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Ed Mensor appears to be a third misidentified player as he does not seem to be present in Spring Training.

Ralph Capron and Al Kellogg did participate in Spring Training but were not included in the list or the photo.

Although not included in the photo, Lefty Leifield was included in the list of players above the photo.

Lefty Leifield / Lefty Kellogg
Ralph Capron

[UKBaseballfan]

Turning to the remaining identifications suggested on the net54 site am highly sceptical of the Ham Hyatt identification and not convinced in respect of Bill Mckechnie.

First stab in respect of new identifications. Ona Dodd fourth from left in back row. Everett Booe fourth from right on the ground. Howie Camnitz extreme right on ground, he has a habit of wearing his cap at an angle. Billy Kelly seventh from right in top row. Harry Gardner third from left top row. Ray Jansen sixth from right in top row.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Turning to the remaining identifications suggested on the net54 site am highly sceptical of the Ham Hyatt identification and not convinced in respect of Bill Mckechnie.

First stab in respect of new identifications. Ona Dodd fourth from left in back row. Everett Booe fourth from right on the ground. Howie Camnitz extreme right on ground, he has a habit of wearing his cap at an angle. Billy Kelly seventh from right in top row. Harry Gardner third from left top row. Ray Jansen sixth from right in top row.

1912 Pittsburgh Pirates spring training

I disagree about the player in the bottom row on the extreme right. He has a higher forehead and more prominent ears than I've noticed on Howie Camnitz, and most tellingly, he is the only player not wearing a Pittsburgh cap. Camnitz had played for the Pirates every season since 1906. I don't have an ID for him, but I believe he is someone who had played for a different team in 1911.

The player in the bottom row, fourth from the left, who had been identified as Ham Hyatt, I believe to be Ralph Capron. (I have Hyatt in the back row.) Eighth through tenth in that row I have Everett Booe, Harry Gardner (?), and Ona Dodd (?), followed by the player in the dark cap with white piping. (Names followed by question marks are the ones I'm less confident about.)

In the top row, left to right, I have Lefty Kellogg (?), Howie Camnitz (with his hat cocked to his left), Hank Robinson, Mickey Keliher, unidentified, Hal Grover, Bill McKechnie, unidentified, Cliff Averett, Ray Haley, Ray Jansen, Billy Kelly, Rebel Keen (?), George Gibson, Ham Hyatt, and Al Wagner.

I think that it is also Al (Butts) Wagner as the coach in the 1913 spring training photo we had been discussing.