New HW Boxers Rated

[LeeSkye]

vistaman44 and Rocco..again thanks to you and everyone else for all the fighters. This has been great! It has helped me to take a look at a number of new fighters in relationship to these guys and once I see what 1930's fighters Mark42661 has for Cornerwork.com I will see what new palookas I can rate.

[vistaman44]

Originally posted by Rocco Del Sesto
Hey Mark,
I ran across this HW looking up something else. Jimmy Carollo 1942-50 36-21-2-9KO BoxRec. 024440 Somebody that might interest you for your 40's universe if you'd not run across him before.
Rocco

Rocco;
I had seen his name as an opponent of others I'd rated, but hadn't gotten around to looking at him --- with 80 from the 1940-50 period in the game and 26 more I had rated, I thought I had enough heavyweights.

Then I saw this post, went and looked at him, added him to my to-do list ... and next thing I know I've got 70 more fighters across all weight classes added to my list! I may never get to fight another fight in my universe with all these fighters to add. Thanks a lot ...! LOL

Seriously, I appreciate the guys you've rated from the period, and particularly the Euros you've posted recently. Thanks, Rocco.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Thanks Mark!

Thanks though to everyone who's willing to share things on this forum. Ratings, PIcs, Skins, etc. This TBCB community is really a great group to be a part of. I'll tell you, I've found it there's just not enough time in the day and still go to work and spend the time you need to with family to do all that I'd love to do with this game and spend the time reading these boards!

My hats off to everyone on here add a LOT to an already great game but Jim, Tom, Andreas and all at OOTP.

Rocco

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Gerhard Zech's 36th fight.... 1965-10-09 Hamburg, Germany

Gerhard Zech (33-1-1) vs Jim Bailey (14-14-3)

Bailey is in my game data base. I don't remember now if it was in the original one or someone on here rated him. Bailey was out of PHiladelphia. He posted a lifetime 18-20-3, 11KO's record. Not an overly impressive one. He did fight a number of noteable opponents though from 1962-71. Mostly of those fights ended in defeat though for JIm.

Losses included to Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen, Bob Foster, Leotis Martin, George Chuvalo, Karl Mildenberger, Buddy Thurman, Sonny LIston, Jurgen Blin and Rudi Lubbers. He did manage to defeat Peter Weiland(23-6-2,18KO's), Wilhelm von Homburg(29-11-6,24KO), both of whom Zech will meet up with later.

Bailey also beat Gerhard, which fight is the subject of this replay bout. Bailey shocked Zech with a 2nd round KO in Hamburg back in 1965 handing Zech his 4th career loss.

The replay was with different results, though a tough bout for Zech. I scheduled it an 8 round bout. Zech controlled most of the fight and managed to put Bailey down on the canvas 4 times! He did it in the 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 8th rounds. The fight ends in a UD for Zech.

Next up......

Gerhard Zech(34-1-1) vs Karl Mildenberger(46-2-3)
1965-11-26 in Frankfurt, Germany
They'll be at it for the European Heavyweight Crown!

See you then!

[Heavyweight]

Zech would be rated in the top 5 in the world if this were his actual career. A draw with rated Terrell and a win over rated Folley. I am suprised he has held up this well. He was obviously at least two steps below those guys. Anything can happen on a computet however and that is what makes it interesting.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Gerhard Zech's 37th fight.... 1965-11-26 Frankfurt, Germany

Gerhard Zech (34-1-1) vs Karl Mildenberger(46-2-3)
A scheduled 15 rounds for the European Heavyweight Title!

Two southpaws meet up in this big European Title fight!

Mildenberger would have to be considered one of the top European Heavyweights up through the mid 1960's if maybe not the top European HW's of all time? From 1958 thru June 1966 he compiled a 49-2-3 record. Lack of a big knockout punch though for Karl as he had only 17 KO/TKO's in those 49 wins maybe keeps him from attaining more greatness outside of Europe. In that time period he fought and defeated the likes of Mariano Echevarria, Alain Cherville(Twice), Wim Snoek(twice), LHW-Alex Buxton who was at the tail end of his career, Franco Cavicchi(also on the backside career wise), Frankie Daniels(37-35-6,22KO), Jose Gonzalez Sales, YOung Jack Johnson, Federico Friso, Joe Bygraves, Ulli Ritter, Von Clay, Wayne Bathea, Joe Erskine, Archie McBRide, Sante Amonti(whom he defeated in Oct. 1964 for the then vacant European HW Title), Jefferson Davis,Piero Tomasoni(Defending his European Title), Dave Bailey, Gerhard Zech (whom Karl won a 15 round decision in Nov. 1965 in thier European Title fight), Eddie Machen and Yvan Prebeg(Another 15 round defence of the European Title.

Karl also drew with Archie McBride, Zora Folley and Amos Johnson. He lost to LWH- Helmut Ball(his first career loss in November 1959) and to Dick Richardson(Richardson KO'd Karl in the 1st round for the European HW Title).

All that fighting moves us up to Karl's big chance in September 1966 for the World Heavyweight Title against Ali. MIldenberger was the first southpaw to fight for the World HW Title. Karl took Ali into the 12th round before the fight was stopped, ALI TKO winner. After that Karl defeated Tomasoni and Billy Walker each in 1967 for the European HW Title. He then beat Amos Lincoln before loosing to Oscar Bonavena in September 1967 in the first round of the WBA Heavyweight Elimination Tournament being staged by the WBA to replacement for Ali's crown.

After his defeat to Bonavena, Mildenberger defeated Gerhard Zech a 2nd time in 15 rounds for the European Title. Two defeats though after that finished up Karl's career, a 7th round KO to Leotis Martin and then an 8th round disqualification to Henry Cooper handing the European Title to Cooper.

As mentioned above, Mildenberger and Zech battled for 15 rounds in 1965 with Karl taking the decision. I'd like to really know more about what that fight was really like.

In my replay, these two took a rather defensive approach for the first 4 rounds with Karl taking the advantage in 3 of the rounds. In the 5th round they finally started trading punches with more action following in the 6th. The 7th was a close defensive round again. Then in the 8th, Zech lands an uppercut that drops Karl for a 4 count giving Zech a decisive 8th round. From the 9th through the 14th rounds, they fought back and forth. One fighter would get a bit of advantage in one round then the other would come back in the next or they'd fight it even. Over it all though through that 14 rounds Zech gradually built himself an advantage to bring on the 15th where Karl pretty much needed a KO to win it.

Instead, Zech manages a tremendous body punch that drops Karl for the 2nd time in the fight. Karl gets up in 5, but the damage is done with Gerhard Zech winning the European Heavyweight Championship!! It was a UD with the scores 146-138, 146-138 and 144-141.

I was hoping to see this kind of fight between these two. I think we saw them go at it pretty much like a bet they did in 1965.

Next time out we'll see GErhard defend his German HW Title in April 1966 against WEstphal. So for the next time, see you in.....

Hamburg, Germany for
Gehard ZEch (35-1-1) vs Albert Westphal(38-13-6)

[jabbo]

Hmmmm...Terrell, Folley, now Mildenberger? All of these are in my top 60 heavyweights since 1960; Terrell and Folley among the top 30. Zech, whom I would rate around 200, would definitely be in line for a title shot with these results. Obviously, his career path would have diverged completely from his actual history if these were his actual results. I would expect Zech to defend his European crown against a Cooper or Walker...

Bob

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Heavyweights who fought in International Titles

Here's another one from the HW's I'm working on that fought in various international title fights. Another decent looking German fighter from the mid 50's to early 60's.

Hans Kalbfell -2 Overall Rating
Nationality- Germany
b. 1930-05-16
d.
Career, 1955-61
BoxRec. 012482
Record 26 wins / 9 losses / 1 draws / 19 KO

Kalbfell's career started out 14-0-0 against the mostly usual array of nobody's. He did beat in consecutive fights though Alain Chervill, KO'd Robert Eugene and Ko'd Werner Wiegand, another pretty good German and beat Frenchman Robert Duquesne before the Cherville fights.

In November, 1956 Kalbfell lost for the first time, an 8 round decision to Frenchman, Robert Duquesne. In 1957 he won the German Heavyweight Title by an 8th round TKO over Heinz Neuhaus. In 1958 he lost that title to Albert Westphal by a 5th round TKO, but then regained the title from Westphal, beating him in 1959 with a 10th round KO. In March 1960, Han's squared off against Dick Richardson for the then vacant European Heavyweight Title. Richardson won by TKO in the 13th. The two fought a rematch a year later with Richardson winning again, this time a 15 round decision.

In June 1961 he lost again to Albert Westphal for the German HW Title and then to Erich Schoppner(32-0-3 at the time), former German and European LHW Champion who'd stepped up and took Westphal's German HW Title, lost another chance at the German Title. Both those losses were 12 round decisions. That Schoppner fight ended Kalbfell's career.

Other noteable fights in Kalbfell's career included wins over Federico Friso and Tommy(Hurricane) Jackson and losses to Archie Moore, a non title fight to Dick Richardson, Henry Cooper and Mino Bozzano.

Kalbfell was stopped only 3 times in his career, all 3 TKO's.

I simmed him against all his opponents I currently have in my data base which comes to 19 fights and then the other 17 in each 36 bout set I put him up against 1-2 rated HW's which looks like a good range of what else he fought.

Good average results I got.

Enjoy......

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Heavyweight made an interesting comment that if Zech had beaten Mildenberger and Folley and drew with Terrell as he did in my replay he'd quite possibly be ranked in the top 5.

So then I looked on Heayweights 60's-70's website and it lists the rankings for 1965(I take that to be year ending) as....

Ali - Champion
1. Ernie Terrell
2. Floyd Patterson
3. Georg Chuvalo
4. Karl Mildenberger
5. Zora Folley
6. Amos Lincoln
7. Thad Spencer
8. Doug Jones
9. Hubert Hilton
10. Brian London

Which makes me want to take this Zech replay onto maybe an interesting "what if" turn.....

After Mildenberger had defeated Zech in November of 65, Zech went on to defend for the 1st time since 1963 his German HW Title against the man he took it from, Albert Westphal. They fought in April 1966 with Zech beating Westphal. Zech then 2 months later fought Sonny Liston in Swedon and went on to fight Jurgen Blin three times and Peter Weiland once for the German Title. Zech never fought again for a title higher then the German Crown.

Mildenberger meanwhile after beating Zech went on to win decisions over Eddie Machen who was in the late stages of his career and Yvan Prebeg, a tough Croatian LHW for the European HW Title. After that Mildenberger got his BIG chance in the boxing ring against Ali in September of 1966.

So in my replay, with Zech having defeated Mildenberger, would or could the world heavyweight rankings look something like this....

Ali - Champion
1. Ernie Terrell
2. Floyd Patterson
3. Georg Chuvalo
4. Gehard Zech
5. Zora Folley
6. Amos Lincoln
7. Thad Spencer
8. Doug Jones
9. Hubert Hilton
10. Brian London

For the fun of it, lets say they did

Obviously is he'd defeated Mildenberger he wouldn't have gone on to fight Westphal for the German crown, or at least I would think not. I'd believe he'd be looking for 1 or 2 more fights to set himself up to have that chance in the ring against Ali sometime in latter 1966. What does everyone think??

My intent is still to finish out portions of Zech's career to take on the opponents he's not faced yet that I'll rate the fighters, like von Homburg and Echevarria, but, who should he fight next? You boxing experts out there, what would the world boxing organization back in 1965-66 probably have done to set up a matchup between Ali and the leftehander from Berlin, Germany??!!

[Heavyweight]

I think Gerhard would be in line for a big payday against Ali right now. No way he would fight Liston, no need to. Ali wanted to fight outside the country at the time. Berlin Germany, Muhammad Ali vs Gerhard Zech, believe me after the results he's attained he would be given a title shot in lieu of Mildenberger. Or have him fight Westphal and if he wins he fights Ali, sometimes Ali liked to put these kinds of stipulations into fights.

[swampdragon]

I think the past-prime Patterson comes next. With a win over Patterson and a draw with the top ranked contender Terrell, he would be well positioned for the title shot. If he loses, he can fight Westphal.

[Roydboy]

I would think a 10 rounder vs. Terrell would solidify his credentials for a title shot. Why should he hop over both Patterson and Terrell without at least a bout with a top ten contender?
By the way, thanks Rocco for all the new HW's. My universe is still in 1954 so I'll be using the guys you rated. Interesting thread.

Roy

[vistaman44]

Let Chuvalo outchin the upstart, I say!

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Heavyweights who fought in International Titles

Here's another one from the HW's I'm working on that fought in various international title fights.

Gawie De Klerk -1 Overall Rating
Nationality- South Africa
b. 1936-01-01
d.
Career, 1956-61
BoxRec. 021299
Record 19 wins / 6 losses / 0 draws / 14 KO


Hometown: Pretoria, South Africa

Gawie in his 2nd professional bout went into the ring against

South African HW Champion Johnny Arthur. Arthur TKO'd de Klerk

in the 2nd round. With a 2-1 record, de Klerk in Sept. 1957

fought Eddie Theron (2-0-0) for the South African HW Title

after Arthur had retired earlier in 1957.

de Klerk won over Theron by TKO in the 2nd round. The only

noteable fights for him over the next couple of years were a 10

round decision loss to Franco Cavicchi and a 10 round decision

win over Federico Friso. In April 1959 he successfuly defended

his South African HW Title with a 1st round KO. That leads up

to his one big fight chance in his career as he goes into the

ring in August 1959 against Henry Cooper for the Commonwealth

(British Empire) Heavyweight Title in Porthcawl, Wales. He

looses that fight to Cooper by TKO in the 5th round.

de Klerk continued to hold and defend his South African Crown

up through 1961. His only other fights of note though over

those last couple years were both losses to LHW - Mike HOlt,

the first a 10 round decision and the 2nd by 7th round KO.

[Gunsmoke]

Well it's time for the next Norton opponent. We're still in 1968 for this one and Norton has built an impressive 5-0-0 (4) record so far.

Norton's Sixth Fight

1968-12-05

Cornell Nolan - 3-2-0 (2)

From Oakland, California, Nolan had short career of 5 fights. Starting his career with a 5 round points decision over Washington state string bean LJ Wheeler (he was 6' 8") he preceeded to KO fellow Norton fall guy Wayne Kindred in three rounds (also Kindred's second fight). He sends Arizona native Mike Matousek into retirement with 4th round KO, but then runs into a more experienced Jimmy Gilmore who beats him with a ninth round KO. His last fight is against Ken Norton who knocks him out in six rounds.

Nolan's Fights:

1968-12-05 Ken Norton 5-0-0 L KO 6
1968-08-20 Jimmy Gilmore 3-6-0 L KO 9
1967-05-09 Mike Matousek 4-0-0 W KO 4
1966-11-21 Wayne Kindred 1-0-0 W KO 3
1966-10-04 L J Wheeler 2-0-0 W PTS 5

The Ratings
Cornell Nolan
United States, 0-0-0

First Name Cornell
Last Name Nolan
Nickname
Group Men
Sex Male
Era Retired
Division HW - Heavyweight
Southpaw No
Nationality United States
Career Stage Prime
Career Start 1966
Career End 1968
Trainer Generic Offense
Cut Man Generic Cut Man



Ratings

Control vs Boxer 4
Control vs Slugger 4
Hitting Power 5
Chin vs Knockdown 3
Chin vs Knockout 3
Recovery 3
Resistance to Cuts 2
Absorb Punishment 3
Killer Instinct 6
Aggressiveness 6
Endurance 7
Defense 2
Fast Starter 2
Fight on Ropes 2

Draw Power 1
Conditioning 2
Intellect 3
Proficiency 10
Fight Inside 1
Fight Outside 1
Cover Up 1
Go for Knockout 2
Clinching 60
Ring Movement 0
Style Slugger
Fouls Seldom
Punches % 2 Pt. 3 Pt.
Jabs 15.00 0.25
Hooks 20.75 5.25
Crosses 19.25 4.25
Combinations 9.25 0.50
Uppercuts 21.75 3.75

Punching 32
Counterpunching 30
Punches Missed 68
Overall Rating 2



Biography

boxrec.com ID 015777


Enjoy Guys and hopefully I'll get to the first decent opponent the Norton faces in Joe Hemphill soon.

Cheers,
Mark

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Our big friend from Berlin had defeated fellow German Karl Mildenberger for the European HW Title. He's now ranked 4th in the world by The Ring. What does he do next??

Ahead of him in the Ring rankings are...
#3 George Chuval
#2 Floyd Patterson
#1 Ernie Terrell
and of course our World Champion Muhammad Ali

Of course events of 1965 of sort of started the muddying of the waters for the World Heavyweight Title. When Ali agrees to and gives Sonny Liston a rematch in May 1965, the WBA "takes away" Ali's title for "violation of WBA rules". So the WBA sets up it's own Heavyweight Title match to replace Ali. That match is fought in March 1965 between Eddie Machen and Ernie Terrell. Terrell defeats Machen and now wears the WBA HW Crown. Terrell later in November 1965 defends that crown with a 15 UD over George Chuvalo. Ali meanwhile after defeating Liston and then defeating Floyd Patterson in November 1965, travels abroad to continue fighting taking on in title fights George Chuvalo, Henry Cooper and Brian London before finally he would fight Karl Mildenberger in September 1966. But, wait, Mildenberger's not even the reigning European Champion! He's been decrowned by our own Gerhard Zech!

Meanwhile what's our other title contenders been doing.....

George Chuvalo after his defeat to WBA Champion and #1 Ring Ranked HW Ernie Terrell in Nov. 1965, defeats Joe Bygraves in Dec. 1965, looses to Eduardo Corletti in Jan. 1966 and then in Toronto is the first of Ali's international conquests in March 1966. After the tough 15 round defeat to Ali, Chuvalo will beat a Levi Forte in May and loose to Oscar Bonavena in June 1966.

Floyd Patterson, after he's TKO'd by Ali in November 1965 will not fight again until September of 1966 against Henry Cooper.

Terrell our WBA Title holder, after defending his crown against Chuvalo in November 1965 is due to fight Doug Jones in June 1966 in a title defense.

So where's that leave us with our friend Gerhard? Who does he fight? Would Patterson have it in him to come out before his fight with Cooper to take on the German? I don't think so. I don't think, Gerhard would have anything to prove or gain in fighting Patterson to gain the final step needing in being recognized as a legit title fight for Ali.

Chuvalo, too many fights already between Terrell, Bygraves, Corletti and having already fought Ali. I think it would be a great matchup, but seeing the Canadian take Ali for 15 rounds in March 1966, I don't think the German wants to go near Chuvalo, not right now anyway. But, George took Ali for 15 rounds! What better matchup maybe then to go out and defeat Chuvalo in a fight, who took Ali 15 rounds and prove to Ali's corner that the German deserve a shot at him?!

That leave us with Terrell. Terrell's headed on a course to clash with Ali somewhere in the near future. But first, Terrell's slated to take on Doug Jones in a title defense. Ernie though has been eyeing what the German's been doing over the last couple of years after his near defeat to him in New YOrk. That Majority Draw to Ernie was a defeat. There's no way that upstart German should have taken like that the full 10 rounds.

Zech's corner has been eyeing Terrell also. Could there be a better next step then a rematch with Terrell and settle things there to show Ali, Ring and the rest of the boxing world that Gerhard belongs up there and is the next guy who deserves to fight Ali?! A good argument I think to fight Terrell also. But would Terrell risk his title against the German. He's trying to set himself up for the square off with Ali to settle who's really the World Heavyweight champion. Ernie's already got slated to fight in June Doug Jones for a title defence that he feels there's no chance of loosing to. That German though has got him thinking.......

So... the Zech, Terrell and Chuvalo camps are all talking......George has just taken Ali for 15 and by May is ready already to take on someone. Why not the German, #4 ranked in the world. A win there would help bolster Chuvalo's #3 slate up a bit. Come out and fight George in May and then after Terrell takes on Jones in June see if something can be lined up for a WBA title fight maybe in late August. Or can Terrell be talked out of the Jones fight and give Zech the shot instead?????

Stay with us as negotiations and the debate goes on........

[Heavyweight]

Zech should fight a lesser fighter then fight Ali. His management team should know that Ali is looking for fights abroad as he is having trouble in the U.S already. Zech would be very wise not to risk his lofty ramking quite yet. Who did Mildenberger fight next after beating Zech? That might be a good starting point.
The answer a post-prime Eddie Machen then Yvan Preburg for the European, then Ali. If he can scratch past Machen he would deserve the shot. Also it should be a home-town crowd and referee if you catch my drift.....

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Heavyweight,

Thanks! I think you make some very valid points. I looked at Mildenberger's record and he fought Machen first in Feb. 66 and then Prebeg in June after beating Zech. The fight with Prebeg was a European Title fight. Thinking about it, I think your correct. A natural course would be those 2 fights for Zech, first Machen and then Prebeg to set up the fight against Ali, just as it did for Mildenberger. Why risk, and I don't think Zech's management would have risked the fights against any of those top 3 contenders. Like you said, Ali with his troubles in the states, was looking for competition abroad and if Zech can beat Machen and Prebeg in that time frame that's a great set up for Ali.

And besides, what's great about that, Prebeg was next on my list of HW's who fought in international title fights project that I was going to work on rating. Kill two birds with one stone!

Rocco

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Well, after much debate and uncertainty in the Zech camp, Gerhard's manager has decided that the next course of action for his European HW Champion will be to accept a defense title in June 1966 for the European HW crown against Croatian LHW Yvan Prebeg(31-15-5,22KO liftetime) who's stepping up to try and take the HW title, but will first fight a "warmup" match with heavyweight veteran Eddie Machen.

The Machen fight has been set for April 14th, 1966 at Schlachtof Halle in Hamburg, Germany.

So we'll get ready to rumble here soon in Hamburg. First off, I'll get Prebeg rated, which is nice since he's one I was going to do for my international fights project.

See you soon in Hamburg, Germany!!

[vistaman44]

Good points, Rocco and Heavyweight. Prebeg's the next logical Euro contender. Should be good fights ... and selfishly, I look forward to picking up Prebeg when you've rated him! Thanks in advance.