Gambo and T_Wil1 Photopack

[Buccos]

Do any non-tiny MLB (Pirates, not an 1800's uniform) photos exist of one-game wonder Dennis Konuszewski?

Thanks for checking,
J

[Cusick]

This is a John Spear photo which I purchased years ago.

[RUKen]

Bill Cristall 1901
This is cropped from a group photo of the Oakland Clamdiggers in the April 6, 1902, edition of the Los Angeles Herald. Cristall had joined Oakland of the California League for the 1902 season, after pitching for the Cleveland Blues of the American League in September, 1901 (his only stint in the major leagues). During spring training, when the group photo was taken, Cristall wore his uniform from the previous season, as most players did at that time. This gives us a rare look at the Cleveland uniform from their first major league season.

[hobbs11]

Hey all,

I have a question that might be less about some images of Neal Heaton being released on the TV folders earlier this week, and more about the lack of Topps produced cards of him when he played for the Tribe.

Perhaps Merkle, this is in your area of keen insight....I dunno.....

I think I seemingly get it. Back in the early 80s a player didn't have to be signed up with all the various card companies. In Neal's case, Donruss and Fleer issued cards of him after he started 16, 34, and 33 games across three seasons in the early 80s. Yet nothing from Topps. But then Topps releases these two photos?

So perhaps they took his photo and pending agreement, they would then issue his Topps card? And if they didn't gain an agreement, Topps never issues a card of him suited up for the Indians and we eventually gain the original pics?

I guess I was simply curious if anyone knew what if anything, might have happened between the two parties. Thanks!

[Expos 1969-2004]

Image published in 1990.

[Merkle923]

Funny you should bring this up while I'm on my way back from one of my consulting sessions at Topps.

In the immediate post-monopoly era there were guys, Heaton, Kevin McReynolds, Chili Davis, etc, who held out for more from Topps while signing with Donruss, Fleer or the others. That didn't mean Topps didn't keep trying to photograph them - otherwise they'd have had no images ready for whenever a player like Heaton finally agreed.

Though the problem was amplified by an army of outside manufacturers, it was not new. The Topps-Bowman lawsuits over player contracts seemed to have exceeded in number the size of the average set of the mid-'50s. Other players, like Musial, had exclusive contracts for their image with sporting goods manufacturers, etc (explaining why he didn't appear in a card until 1958). When Fleer first tried to put out MLB cards in the early '60s it put several guys - Marshall Bridges, Jack Reed, Chris Short, Maury Wills, etc - under exclusive contracts. Yet Topps kept shooting these guys in anticipation of their eventual contractual availability.

Then there are a few examples - Tony Horton being the most prominent and frightening one - of players who just didn't want to be on cards. Topps probably took 120 shots of Horton, the last in 1969, and has sold many of them on eBay, even though they never put out a card of him.

[cinemaodyssey]

Obviously from around the 1890 season, this player is marked as unidentified in the NYPL catalog. BMarlowe did id's for several other photos, but I couldn't find one for this guy. Does anybody know who this is?

[cinemaodyssey]

Here's another player that did not have an id from the NYPL catalog. Hopefully somebody knows who this is, as this is a very nice cabinet photo from around 1890.

[pegasus27]

Originally Posted by Merkle923

Funny you should bring this up while I'm on my way back from one of my consulting sessions at Topps.

In the immediate post-monopoly era there were guys, Heaton, Kevin McReynolds, Chili Davis, etc, who held out for more from Topps while signing with Donruss, Fleer or the others. That didn't mean Topps didn't keep trying to photograph them - otherwise they'd have had no images ready for whenever a player like Heaton finally agreed.

Though the problem was amplified by an army of outside manufacturers, it was not new. The Topps-Bowman lawsuits over player contracts seemed to have exceeded in number the size of the average set of the mid-'50s. Other players, like Musial, had exclusive contracts for their image with sporting goods manufacturers, etc (explaining why he didn't appear in a card until 1958). When Fleer first tried to put out MLB cards in the early '60s it put several guys - Marshall Bridges, Jack Reed, Chris Short, Maury Wills, etc - under exclusive contracts. Yet Topps kept shooting these guys in anticipation of their eventual contractual availability.

Then there are a few examples - Tony Horton being the most prominent and frightening one - of players who just didn't want to be on cards. Topps probably took 120 shots of Horton, the last in 1969, and has sold many of them on eBay, even though they never put out a card of him.

The Horton story has always interested me. Especially since he is on at least one Kelloggs 3D card. I wonder if he signed a deal with Kelloggs?

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

Post #27611: Here's another player that did not have an id from the NYPL catalog. Hopefully somebody knows who this is, as this is a very nice cabinet photo from around 1890.

The October 2014 issue of the SABR Pictorial History Research Committee Newsletter included a couple of group photos of the 1890 Phillies with IDs. I'm not an ID expert, but I think that the player in post #27611 (on the right below) may be the player identified in one of the 1890 photos as Bill Gray (on the left, but I'm not so sure the ears match). Edited to add: After staring at these images some more, I am now in agreement with Cusick (post #27618) and TNFoto (post #27621) that the ears do not match and the mystery player is not Bill Gray.

[Merkle923]

About the Kellogg 1971 card all I've ever heard or surmised is that since the Kellogg's deal was one of the MLBPA's first revenue streams in which they got to put their logo on some of the products, Horton either agreed or didn't have a choice (by the time the card was produced, sadly, he had already left Cleveland - and baseball - after his 1970 health crisis).

This leaves no explanation for his appearance on the regionally issued Kahn's hot dogs cards of 1968 (below) and 1969 other than a theory that emerged after I saw Horton's contract file card at Topps, which listed the many dates contracts were sent to him and bore the notation "does not reply to mail." Given that he kept posing for Topps - always an in-person, in-the-moment request - and was never reported to be difficult in person with media or players, I've just always guessed the Kellogg's and Kahn's deals were proposed (maybe even paid) in person, directly or through the Players' Association in the one case or the team in the other.

[FatJack]

Might be just distracted by the misdirection, but this offering from Kyles is identified as Jerry Fosnow. It doesn't look like Fosnow, Fosnow was a lefty, and there'd be no reason for Fosnow to be in Wrigley Field with the Mets, even if he did ever cross their path as a spring invitee or something (which I don't believe he did). Anybody recognize him? Probably somebody I should know, but I don't. I'm drawing a blank. Harry Chiti, perhaps (too soon?)?

[BklynJace]

Originally Posted by FatJack

Might be just distracted by the misdirection, but this offering from Kyles is identified as Jerry Fosnow. It doesn't look like Fosnow, Fosnow was a lefty, and there'd be no reason for Fosnow to be in Wrigley Field with the Mets, even if he did ever cross their path as a spring invitee or something (which I don't believe he did). Anybody recognize him? Probably somebody I should know, but I don't. I'm drawing a blank. Harry Chiti, perhaps (too soon?)?

My guess is Larry Foss. Was at Wrigley with Mets at end of year, Kyles also put up a picture of him.

Which would be a great find!

Thoughts?

[Cusick]

It seems improbable that one of the two above unidentified Phillies would be a man who pitched in only one game for the 1890 Philadelphia Phillies. However, I've examined every player on both the 1889 and 1890 Phillies, and have been unable to come up with any alternative which comes to such a close match. The photo of McFetridge comes from Marc Okkonen's book, BASEBALL MEMORIES: 1900 - 1909.

The ear comparison is a bit problematic. We're looking at the left ear of McFetridge and the right ear of the unidentified player. They both have unusual ear shapes. The bottoms of the ears seem to match. The tops do not. I have seen people with differing shapes in the two ears.

The eyes seem to be a bit darker in the Okkonen-acquired photo of McFetridge, but it's difficult to discern whether that is simply due to the lower quality of the photo.

[Cusick]

Tom Vickery won 24 games for the 1890 Phillies, but lost 22. Unfortunately, I don't have a photo of him to use for comparison purposes, but this woodcut from The New York Clipper seems to line up pretty well against the second unidentified player. Again, I couldn't find any other player who made such a close match, and I ruled out Billy Gray on the basis of the same ear not matching in the two photos presented above.

[custard48]

Originally Posted by BklynJace

My guess is Larry Foss. Was at Wrigley with Mets at end of year, Kyles also put up a picture of him.

Which would be a great find!

Thoughts?

I think it's Foss, too. "Fosnow's" eyebrows match the brows of pictures I know are of Foss. Another consistency is that you don't see any numerals on the fronts of any of the Mets unis in that pic -- so 1962 isn't ruled out as a possible date of the "Fosnow" photo.

[tnfoto]

Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

Obviously from around the 1890 season, this player is marked as unidentified in the NYPL catalog. BMarlowe did id's for several other photos, but I couldn't find one for this guy. Does anybody know who this is?

Originally Posted by Cusick

It seems improbable that one of the two above unidentified Phillies would be a man who pitched in only one game for the 1890 Philadelphia Phillies. However, I've examined every player on both the 1889 and 1890 Phillies, and have been unable to come up with any alternative which comes to such a close match. The photo of McFetridge comes from Marc Okkonen's book, BASEBALL MEMORIES: 1900 - 1909.

The ear comparison is a bit problematic. We're looking at the left ear of McFetridge and the right ear of the unidentified player. They both have unusual ear shapes. The bottoms of the ears seem to match. The tops do not. I have seen people with differing shapes in the two ears.

The eyes seem to be a bit darker in the Okkonen-acquired photo of McFetridge, but it's difficult to discern whether that is simply due to the lower quality of the photo.

I believe there's a good chance this is McFetridge. Here is a photo of McFetridge from 1903, showing a similar fold at the top of his right ear.

[tnfoto]

Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

Here's another player that did not have an id from the NYPL catalog. Hopefully somebody knows who this is, as this is a very nice cabinet photo from around 1890.

Originally Posted by RUKen

The October 2014 issue of the SABR Pictorial History Research Committee Newsletter included a couple of group photos of the 1890 Phillies with IDs. I'm not an ID expert, but I think that the player in post #27611 (on the right below) may be the player identified in one of the 1890 photos as Bill Gray (on the left, but I'm not so sure the ears match).

Originally Posted by Cusick

Tom Vickery won 24 games for the 1890 Phillies, but lost 22. Unfortunately, I don't have a photo of him to use for comparison purposes, but this woodcut from The New York Clipper seems to line up pretty well against the second unidentified player. Again, I couldn't find any other player who made such a close match, and I ruled out Billy Gray on the basis of the same ear not matching in the two photos presented above.

The ears do not match for either Gray or Vickery, whose photos are shown below.

[FatJack]

Originally Posted by BklynJace

My guess is Larry Foss. Was at Wrigley with Mets at end of year, Kyles also put up a picture of him.

Which would be a great find!

Thoughts?

Hey, that DOES look like Foss! What a great find indeed! Thanks guys!

Cooo-el!

[okcochise]

I hope that is Foss too as I included him in my latest baseball card update. The new zip includes about 400 new cards named specifically for APC & Replay. There is also a separate folder which includes a few new updates for each season of Diamond Mind.

https://www.mediafire.com/folder/v3j2keaoa8t3h/Cards

Thanks to all who have contributed to this effort. Jeff