Thread for player identification in team photos

[RUKen]

1911 Washington Nationals

Henry/Hughes/Johnson/Lelivelt

[RUKen]

1911 Washington Nationals

McBride/Milan/Miller/Otey

[RUKen]

1911 Washington Nationals

Schaefer/Sherry/Street/Walker

[UKBaseballfan]

Thank you for the extensive information in respect of the 1911 team photo and the nickname correction.

I will start entering names on the post that includes the team photo.

Note that nine players are in uniform and 10 are wearing jackets. Would the nine players in uniform potentially be the starting lineup for an early season encounter.

Bob Groom started the game of 21st April but Walter Johnson is depicted in uniform. Interestingly behind Groom the Nationals shut out the Highlanders 1-0 . The second game of what turned out to be a 2 game Series took place on a Monday 24th. Does that mean bad weather interrupted the Series over the weekend. Paradoxically Johnson started the second game but the Nationals lost 5-3. Johnson in uniform raised the possibility that this could be a photo from 24th. April. The batting order on the 24th was Milan, Schaefer, Elberfeld, Cunningham, Miller, McBride, Henry, Ainsmith and Johnson. The only 2 changes from the 21st were Johnson in for Groom and Ainsmith catching in place of Street.

The player on the ground third from right appears to be wearing a catchers mitt. It is plausable that it is Ainsmith rather than Street again giving weight that it may be an image from the 24th.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Note that nine players are in uniform and 10 are wearing jackets. Would the nine players in uniform potentially be the starting lineup for an early season encounter.

Bob Groom started the game of 21st April but Walter Johnson is depicted in uniform. Interestingly behind Groom the Nationals shut out the Highlanders 1-0 . The second game of what turned out to be a 2 game Series took place on a Monday 24th. Does that mean bad weather interrupted the Series over the weekend. Interestingly Johnson started the second game but the Nationals lost 5-3. Johnson in uniform raised the possibility that this could be a photo from 24th. April. The batting order on the 24th was Milan, Schaefer, Elberfeld, Cunningham, Miller, McBride, Henry, Ainsmith and Johnson. The only 2 changes from the 21st were Johnson in for Groom and Ainsmith catching in place of Street.

The player on the ground third from right appears to be wearing a catchers mitt. It is plausable that it is Ainsmith rather than Street again giving weight that it may be an image from the 24th.

Yes; a game scheduled for Saturday the 22nd was rained out, and there was no scheduled Sunday game.

It is Ainsmith with the catcher's mitt in the bottom row. I believe Street is in a sweater, just right of Johnson. You may be right about the players without sweaters being those who started the Monday game.

[RUKen]

1911 Washington Nationals

I have made my first attempt at identifying the players in the photo, listed below. I believe that Dixie Walker and Tom Hughes are not in it. Walker had been injured in his previous start, and was probably not in uniform for the games in New York. Hughes was scheduled to pitch the first game in Philadelphia after leaving New York, and may have also chosen not to dress for the last game at Hilltop Park. John Somerlott joined the Nationals later in the month, but there is no evidence he was with the team in New York**. I have attached an image of him below. That left me with 18 players to fill 19 spots. I cannot find a good match for the short man at the far left of the top row. The players who were with the team late in spring training and then cut are all accounted for (they were not in New York, as far as I can tell). All of the players not in sweaters played in the game on April 24th. Here are my IDs:

Top Row: Conroy***, Sherry, Gessler***, Cunningham, Lelivelt, Groom, Somerlott**, Johnson, Hughes*, Street, Otey, McBride.
Bottom Row: Schaefer, Milan, Conway, Miller, Ainsmith, Elberfeld, Henry.

Having just posted this, I see we have a number of differences. Miller was the only lefthander in the lineup on the 24th, and Milan was right-handed, so I think Miller is a better match for the player fourth from the left in the bottom row. Conway was 5'11", taller than the player on the far left of the top row. (UKBaseballFan has updated his IDs since I wrote this.)

*I have replaced Gessler with Hughes, after further discussion with UKBaseballFan. I am doubtful that Gessler is the player on the far left of the top row.

**I have determined that Somerlott was with the team in New York, and have now placed him in the picture.

***My confidence in these IDs is lower than for most of the others.

John Somerlott

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

1911 Washington Nationals

I have made my first attempt at identifying the players in the photo, listed below. I believe that Dixie Walker and Tom Hughes are not in it. Walker had been injured in his previous start, and was probably not in uniform for the games in New York. Hughes was scheduled to pitch the first game in Philadelphia after leaving New York, and may have also chosen not to dress for the last game at Hilltop Park. John Somerlott joined the Nationals later in the month, but there is no evidence he was with the team in New York. I have attached an image of him below. That left me with 18 players to fill 19 spots. I cannot find a good match for the short man at the far left of the top row. The players who were with the team late in spring training and then cut are all accounted for (they were not in New York, as far as I can tell). All of the players not in sweaters played in the game on April 24th. Here are my IDs:

Top Row: Unknown, Sherry, Lelivelt, Cunningham, Conroy, Groom, Gray, Johnson, Gessler, Street, Otey, McBride.
Bottom Row: Schaefer, Milan, Conway, Miller, Ainsmith, Elberfeld, Henry.

Having just posted this, I see we have a number of differences. Miller was the only lefthander in the lineup on the 24th, and Milan was right-handed, so I think Miller is a better match for the player fourth from the left in the bottom row. Conway was 5'11", taller than the player on the far left of the top row.

John Somerlott

Thanks for the alternative suggestions. Agree certainly with your placement of George McBride, Fred Sherry and Charles Conway. Thanks also for pointing out that the player 4th from left on the bottom appears to be a lefty and therefore should be Miller, and agree with your replacement of Milan. I have taken aboard your information in respect of Dixie Walker and placed Gabby Street in that position as you suggest. I believe we are in agreement now in respect of the bottom row but some differences remain on the top row.

[RUKen]

I concede that Lelivelt is a better match than Conroy for top row, 5th from left. I am pretty certain, though, that Conroy is actually top row, 3rd from left, and Gray is where I've had him at top row, 7th from left. 3rd-left has full cheeks like Conroy, whereas 7th-left is gaunt like Gray.

Conroy/3rd left/7th left/Gray

[RUKen]

I think Groom's facial expression when being photographed is a really good match for the partially obscured player top row, 6th from left. I think Gessler, at 5'10", is better for top row, 9th from left, than the short guy at top row, far left (who appears to be 5'8" or less).

Groom / 6th left / 9th left / Gessler

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

I think Groom's facial expression when being photographed is a really good match for the partially obscured player top row, 6th from left. I think Gessler, at 5'10", is better for top row, 9th from left, than the short guy at top row, far left (who appears to be 5'8" or less).

Groom / 6th left / 9th left / Gessler

Yes, you have convinced me in respect of re-positioning Groom to where you suggest. I do like Hughes where Groom previously was located. To my eye the player 9th from left looks slightly taller than Johnson who is 6'1 so wouldn't Gessler be too short, I prefer Hughes there, with Gray an alternate option.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Yes, you have convinced me in respect of re-positioning Groom to where you suggest. I do like Hughes where Groom previously was located. To my eye the player 9th from left looks slightly taller than Johnson who is 6'1 so wouldn't Gessler be too short, I prefer Hughes there, with Gray an alternate option.

OK; I agree that Hughes looks like a good match for 9th-left, better than Gessler. I'm still skeptical that Gessler is the height-challenged player on the far left, but I haven't yet found the name of another player who was with Washington April 24th.

Hughes / 9th left / Gessler / 1st left

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by RUKen

1911 Washington Nationals

John Somerlott joined the Nationals later in the month, but there is no evidence he was with the team in New York.

Just to complicate this further, I have learned that Somerlott was with the team in New York, and his face is a lot like Dolly Gray's. Gray was 6'2", Somerlott was 6'0". The player in the top row, 7th from the left, appears to be slightly shorter than Walter Johnson, who was 6'1", so I think now it is Somerlott.

Somerlott / 7th-left / Gray

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

Just to complicate this further, I have learned that Somerlott was with the team in New York, and his face is a lot like Dolly Gray's. Gray was 6'2", Somerlott was 6'0". The player in the top row, 7th from the left, appears to be slightly shorter than Walter Johnson, who was 6'1", so I think now it is Somerlott.

Somerlott / 7th-left / Gray

Maybe the key to this will be deciding who the player top left is, there seem to be a number of options, Doc Gessler, Wid Conroy, John Somerlott or Dolly Gray, it seems it has to be one of those? Conroy from a height point of view would be the best fit but facially he seems a much better fit as the player adjacent to Johnson. If Somerlott is included in the photo then either of Gray or Gessler would not be present.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Maybe the key to this will be deciding who the player top left is, there seem to be a number of options, Doc Gessler, Wid Conroy, John Somerlott or Dolly Gray, it seems it has to be one of those? Conroy from a height point of view would be the best fit but facially he seems a much better fit as the player adjacent to Johnson. If Somerlott is included in the photo then either of Gray or Gessler would not be present.

The shortest man standing in the back row cannot be 6'0" John Somerlott or 6'2" Dolly Gray. Wid Conroy was 5'9" and Doc Gessler was 5'10". Looking at other images of Conroy, I could believe that he is the man on the far left, and Gessler is third from the left. With their eyes shaded, I don't have a lot of confidence in the IDs for these two players.

Conroy (alternate image) / 1st-left / 3rd-left / Gessler

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

The shortest man standing in the back row cannot be 6'0" John Somerlott or 6'2" Dolly Gray. Wid Conroy was 5'9" and Doc Gessler was 5'10". Looking at other images of Conroy, I could believe that he is the man on the far left, and Gessler is third from the left. With their eyes shaded, I don't have a lot of confidence in the IDs for these two players.

Conroy (alternate image) / 1st-left / 3rd-left / Gessler

Here are 2 additional images from a reasonably close angle to the team photo, dated 1909 and 1910, of Wid Conroy, they may help either way. Yes, I understand that there is a height conflict that exists in respect of Gray and Somerlott but these heights are not 100 per cent reliable in some cases. We seem to be heading in the direction that Dolly Gray is not present.

Analysing a match with Conroy the shape of the mouth and the ears do appear to be a match with the unidentified player top left and I agree the light and shadow issues do not make matters easy. The negatives in terms of a positive match are that Conroy appears to like his cap tilted on both of the 2 identified images down from his right towards the left. The chin does not look right and the facial appearance is broader in the team photo image.

As an additional comparison I have added 2 images of Doc Gessler from the 1903 Tigers and 1906 Cubs.

Just to clarify the 5 images from l-r are 1909 Wid Conroy, 1910 Wid Conroy, unidentified player 1911 team photo, 1903 Doc Gessler, 1906 Doc Gessler

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

...I understand that there is a height conflict that exists in respect of Gray and Somerlott but these heights are not 100 per cent reliable in some cases. We seem to be heading in the direction that Dolly Gray is not present.

Somerlott's face is very similar to Gray's, and unlike Conroy's or Gessler's. I have attached a newspaper article from 1910 that confirms Somerlott's height.

[UKBaseballfan]

The subject of this post is the image attached below from the Bain Collection. Housed in the Library of Congress and also on Flicker. In neither posts are identifications provided but it is entitled 1921 Pittsburgh Pirates pitchers.

I believe an undertaking was initiated to provide identifications for players shown in Bain images but this one appears to have slipped through the net.

I don't know when the image was taken but Spring Training 1921 would be a good place to start until evidence suggests otherwise. Evidence of a substantial nature was produced to change the original assertion. Significant that some of the players were wearing the new uniforms introduced in 1921. Habitually new uniforms are first worn on opening day and not before. Additional photographic evidence from 1921 Spring Training showed that uniforms being worn were from 1920.

15 players are shown but the Pirates used just 14 pitchers in 1921. Linked with the Pirates in Spring Training were a number of pitchers who never reached Major League level, I don't have images of any of these to validate their presence. These include, prominently, Karl Eberhard but also Frank Herbst, George Tice and Bill Lindquist. Also present in Spring Training were Bonnie Hollingsworth and Leo Mangum. At this stage I have settled on a young Mangum as the 15th pitcher, 3 years before his Major League debut.

Finalised identifications relevant to 1922 are suggested below but any further comments either challenging or confirming these would be most welcome.

The Transactional page on B-R indicates that Ponder may have left the 1921 team before Bigbee was acquired but sometimes a player with a team in Spring Training subsequently joins a Major League team after not making the starting day roster.

Top Row (l-r)

Chief Yellowhorse, Jesse Martin, Babe Adams, Phil Morrison, Edwin Schultze, Bill York, Rip Wheeler

Bottom Row

Sheriff Blake, Bonnie Hollingsworth, Johnny Morrison, Wilbur Cooper, Earl Hamilton, Hal Carlson, Earl Whitehill, Jimmy Zinn

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

The Transactional page on B-R indicates that Ponder may have left the team before Bigbee was acquired but sometimes a player with a team in Spring Training subsequently joins a Major League team after not making the starting day roster.

Elmer Ponder was traded to the Cubs on July 1st (source: Pittsburgh Post, July 2, 1921). Lyle Bigbee had been in spring training with the Philadelphia Athletics. He did not make the team that year (he had pitched for them in 1920), and he began the season with the minor league team in Newark, NJ. He was purchased by the Pirates in late July and joined the team on the 26th (source: Pittsburgh Press, July 27, 1921). So, Ponder and Bigbee cannot both be in the photo.

Phil Morrison, Floyd "Rip" Wheeler, and Bill Hughes were not with the Pirates in spring training in 1921, according to newspaper accounts.

The following pitchers were in training that spring, but were not included among the initial IDs by UKBaseballFan: Karl Eberhard, Frank Herbst, John "Bonnie" Hollingsworth, Bill Lengquist, and George Tice.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by RUKen

The following pitchers were in training that spring, but were not included among the initial IDs by UKBaseballFan: Karl Eberhard, Frank Herbst, John "Bonnie" Hollingsworth, Bill Lengquist, and George Tice,

I have not found an image of Lengquist, and I've only found Tice in profile. Attached below are images of:

John Hollingsworth / Frank Herbst / George Tice / Karl Eberhard (2 images)

[RUKen]

Wilbur Cooper was a holdout in spring training in 1921.

I have deleted tentative IDs in this post that were based on the erroneous assumption that the photo was from 1921.

The uniforms are definitely 1921-style. The 1922 uniforms had "old English" P's. I do not know when teams started wearing their uniforms for the upcoming season in spring training, so this could actually be a 1922 image. (Edited to add: Yes; it is definitely a 1922 image.) In that case, the pitchers in spring training were Adams, Cooper, Glazner, Hamilton, Hollingsworth, (John) Morrison, Yellowhorse, Zinn, and also Lyle Bigbee, Fred Blake, Hal Carlson, Phil Morrison, Edwin Schultze, Vern Ulrigg, Rip Wheeler, and Earl Whitehill. Some of these players were not in West Baden with the team, and only joined the Pirates after they had relocated to Hot Springs.

I've attached below two newspaper images of Drew Rader: