Thread for player identification in team photos

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

Wilbur Cooper was a holdout in spring training. My IDs are based on the assumption that the photo was taken before he arrived, and are as follows:

Top Row (L-R): Moses Yellowhorse, Earl Hamilton, Babe Adams, Karl Eberhard, unknown (Bill Lengquist or George Tice), Drew Rader, Elmer Ponder.

Bottom Row (L-R): Frank Herbst, John Hollingsworth, Johnny Morrison, Whitney Glazner, unknown (Bill Lengquist or George Tice), Hal Carlson, Leo Mangum, Jimmy Zinn.

The uniforms are definitely 1921-style. The 1922 uniforms had "old English" P's. I do not know when teams started wearing their uniforms for the upcoming season in spring training, so this could actually be a 1922 image. In that case, the pitchers in spring training were Adams, Cooper, Glazner, Hamilton, Hollingsworth, (John) Morrison, Yellowhorse, Zinn, and also Lyle Bigbee, Fred Blake, Hal Carlson, Phil Morrison, Edwin Schultze, Vern Ulrigg, Rip Wheeler, and Earl Whitehill.

I've attached below two newspaper images of Drew Rader:

Thank you for the analysis and the images of the Minor League players who attended Spring Training in 1921.

Yes, the presence of the new 1921 regular season uniforms would suggest a strong possibility that the image could well be from 1922. Many of the pitchers were again in attendance in 1922. The significant absentee from 1921 would be Elmer Ponder but the image of the player top right does appear to be a very good match for Ponder, the match for Eberhard in the position you place also seems very strong. These two identifications persuade me to stick with a 1921 date for the moment.

Cooper, Yellowhorse, Glazner, Adams, Carlson, Hamilton, J. Morrison, Hollingsworth, Zinn all were in camp in both 21 and 22. Wilbur Cooper did return and pitched for the Pirates certainly on 1st April 1921 and could have been back even earlier so could be present in a 1921 image. In addition to the new names you mention in respect of 1922 there is also a possibility that Jesse Martin listed at 5'10.5 and 160 could have been present. I did read a report that although Bigbee was in consideration he did not attend 1922 Spring Training as he was based in the West, and subsequently was released to sign for a club in that part of the country.

Agreed that P. Morrison, Wheeler, Bigbee and Hughes need to be removed if the image is from 1921 Spring Training.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Wilbur Cooper did return and pitched for the Pirates certainly on 1st April 1921 and could have been back even earlier so could be present in a 1921 image.

Cooper's holdout lasted only for about a week, so I agree that a photo could have been taken during spring training after his return to the team.

[RUKen]

I have just found a couple of very similar photos in the newspaper archives, with player IDs. The top photo was printed in the Pittsburgh Daily Post on March 9, 1921, and the bottom photos were posted in the Pittsburgh Press on March 13, 1921. I've attached the Bain photo in the middle for comparison. Mangum and Cooper did not join the team until after both of these photos were taken, when the team had moved to Hot Springs.

I keep going in circles with this image. I had believed that the Bain photo was taken in Hot Springs, but I have looked at other photos taken in West Baden (where the Pirates trained in early March 1921) and the background looks like an exact match for the practice field in that location. I had revised my IDs in post #340 substantially when I thought that the image was in Hot Springs. With Cooper in the picture (and I no longer doubt that it is him in the bottom row), then this can't be a 1921 image, because he joined the team after they left West Baden.

[RUKen]

Here are images from the Pittsburgh Daily Post, March 12, 1922, of the Pirate pitchers and catchers who were working out in West Baden. Whitey Glazner was a holdout, and Lyle Bigbee was given permission to remain on the West Coast.

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

Here are images from the Pittsburgh Daily Post, March 12, 1922, of the Pirate pitchers and catchers who were working out in West Baden. Whitey Glazner was a holdout, and Lyle Bigbee was given permission to remain on the West Coast.

Thank you for discovering all these highly informative images and the associated research. I will try and assimilate all the information you have provided and try to fit it into identifications based on the image dating from 1922 and not 1921.

I agree that Earl Hamilton should be positioned between Wilbur Cooper and Hal Carlson in the bottom row.

[RUKen]

I believe that the player labeled as Schulze (Edwin Schulze, a semi-pro pitcher who was invited to camp with the Pirates) in the newspaper image is a match for the player in the Bain photo, back row, third from the right. Schulze did not train with the Pirates in 1921.

Edited to add: See post# 355; I reached a different conclusion about this player's ID.

[RUKen]

Phil Morrison is a good match for the player in the middle of the back row. (I think this was your original ID for this man.)

[RUKen]

Earl Whitehill, who was in camp with the Pirates in 1922 but did not make the team, is a match for the player in the bottom row, second from the right. He later played for Detroit.

[RUKen]

I think that Bill York and Rip Wheeler are on the far right of the back row.

York / Bain pic back row / Wheeler

[RUKen]

I believe Fred "Sheriff" Blake is on the far left of the bottom row, and John Hollingsworth is next to him.

[RUKen]

Here are the completed IDs for the 1922 Pirate pitching staff in spring training:

Top Row (L-R): Moses Yellowhorse, Edwin Schulze, Babe Adams, Phil Morrison, Jesse Martin, Bill York, Floyd "Rip" Wheeler.

Bottom Row (L-R): Fred "Sheriff" Blake, John Hollingsworth, Johnny Morrison, Wilbur Cooper, Earl Hamilton, Hal Carlson, Earl Whitehill, Jimmy Zinn.

(These IDs were slightly revised after posts #352 and #355.)

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

At this point, I have the following IDs:

Top Row (L-R): Moses Yellowhorse, Jimmy Zinn, Babe Adams, Phil Morrison, Edwin Schulze, Bill York, Floyd "Rip" Wheeler.

Bottom Row (L-R): Fred "Sheriff" Blake, John Hollingsworth, Johnny Morrison, Wilbur Cooper, Earl Hamilton, Hal Carlson, Earl Whitehill, unknown.

Jesse Martin should be the remaining player.

I agree with nearly all these proposed identifications. I have reservations about Sheriff Blake but only because I have not completed an assessment in respect of him.

I am confident, however, that Zinn is bottom right and that Martin is second from left in the top row. Note Martin's pose and height in the image that you provided of him it completely matches the player second from left in the Bain image.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

I agree with nearly all these proposed identifications. I have reservations about Sheriff Blake but only because I have not completed an assessment in respect of him.

I am confident, however, that Zinn is bottom right and that Martin is second from left in the top row. Note Martin's pose and height in the image that you provided of him it completely matches the player second from left in the Bain image.

I had just reached that same conclusion about Zinn, and was about to make that correction when I saw your post.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

I agree with nearly all these proposed identifications. I have reservations about Sheriff Blake but only because I have not completed an assessment in respect of him.

I am confident, however, that Zinn is bottom right and that Martin is second from left in the top row. Note Martin's pose and height in the image that you provided of him it completely matches the player second from left in the Bain image.

Attached are the two images that we're comparing for Martin. See my next post for a better Martin image.

[RUKen]

I've found a much better image of Jesse Martin from the Ponca City News, April 1st, 1923.

Now I think that Martin is third from the right and Schulze is second from the left.

3rd from right / Martin / 2nd from left / Schulze
Schulze + York

[UKBaseballfan]

Find attached 2 versions of the same image identified as the 1921 St. Louis Cardinals during Spring Training 1921 at Orange Texas. The second image has numbers added indicating a key to the players depicted. Does anyone know the identifications of the players numbered?

Roswell Higginbotham is featured in Gary Bedingfield's book described below and is the player sixth from left in the middle row, which would equate to player numbered 23 wearing a dark cap in the second image.

Austin McHenry would appear to be player number 8 and Rogers Hornsby number 13 both in the top row. Doc Lavan maybe number 11. Regular players are likely to be wearing the uniforms with St. Louis written on them. Player numbered 7 would appear to be a veteran catcher and possibly Verne Clemons is number 6, Ferdie Schupp number 5 and Milt Stock number 4. Specs Toporcer is probably next to Hornsby and numbered 12. It is suggested that Pickles Dillhoefer is number 20, third from left in the middle row, Les Mann number 19 and Lew McCarty 18. Player number 16 has a resemblance and a height consistent with Herb Hunter. Jack Smith at 5'8" could be player 14 and player 1 is suggested to be Hal Janvrin and player 2 as Joe Schultz. Bill Doak possibly can be found as player 33, fourth from left on the ground, and player 32 as Heinie Mueller. Cliff Heathcote is proposed as player 22 and Burt Shotton 21. Bill Sherdel is suggested as 37.

The image appears in Gary Bedingfield's book entitled 'Baseball's dead of World War II" which additionally identifies Branch Rickey in civvies as number 9, Jesse Haines as number 3 and Jack Fournier as number 10. The author credits Scott Higginbotham with the identifications.

Identifications Provided by Gary Bedingfield

Top Row (l-r)

Hal Janvrin, Joe Schultz, Jesse Haines, Lew McCarty, Ferdie Schupp, Verne Clemons, Joe Sugden, Austin McHenry, Branch Rickey, Jack Fournier, Doc Lavan, Specs Toporcer, Rogers Hornsby, Bill Pertica, Earl Brown, Epp Sell, John Sheridan (Sports Writer)

Middle Row

Paul Eiffert, Pickles Dillhoefer, Lou North, Burt Shotton, Roy Walker, Ad Pierotti, Walt Schulz, Frank Gerlach, Roswell Higginbotham, Tim Griesenbeck, Bunny Madden (Syracuse Manager), Keener (Sports Writer)

Bottom Row

Jesse James, Tink Riviere, Heinie Mueller, Jakie May, Sparky Adams, George Gilham, Walt Irwin, Cliff Heathcote, Mike Kircher, Frank Dodson

Initially confidence in these preliminary suggestions ranged from cast-on certainties to highly problematic. For example it appears that Milt Stock was a holdout for maybe all of Spring Training. In that context an alternate proposal for player number 4, fourth from left in the top row would be welcome. The apparent veteran catcher in position 7 could be Paul Eiffert but I have no image of him to make an assessment. Other attendees in Spring Training 1921 but not included in the suggestions were Earl Brown (pitcher), Frank Dodson (pitcher) and Adolfo Pierotti (pitcher). Could Pierotti be the same person known as Al Pierotti or his brother? Who is the mystery person at the right of the top row, a player, a coach, a trainer of an official?

If anyone has alternate suggestions or confirmations I would be grateful for their opinions. The squad travelled down to Orange on Feb 28 1921. Information on who actually attended Spring Training will be most helpful in moving forward. Attached is a third image in respect of the player (?) top right who has been cut off.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

For example it appears that Milt Stock was a holdout for maybe all of Spring Training...Other attendees in Spring Training 1921 but not included in the suggestions were Earl Brown (pitcher), Frank Dodson (pitcher) and Adolfo Pierotti (pitcher). Could Pierotti be the same person known as Al Pierotti or his brother?

I don't have much to offer, but I can tell you that, according to articles in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch and St. Louis Star and Times dated March 23rd, 1921, Adolfo "Ad" Pierotti was from California. Baseball-reference.com states that Albert "Al" Pierotti was from Massachusetts; he played major league baseball in 1920 and 1921 for the Boston Braves. Adolfo was 19 in 1921, six years younger than Al; it is possible that the family could have moved. There is no mention in newspaper articles about Adolfo of a relationship between him and Al, however, so I think they were unrelated.

Also, Milt Stock signed a contract on April 12th or 13th, 1921 (and was not in camp prior to signing); the Cardinal season began on April 13th, so Stock missed the entire spring training period.

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

Also, Milt Stock signed a contract on April 12th or 13th, 1921 (and was not in camp prior to signing); the Cardinal season began on April 13th, so Stock missed the entire spring training period.

Thank you for the clarification in respect of the matters you addressed.

I don't know if this helps but here is a relatively close-up section of the players top left including Milt Stock (likely inaccurate) fourth from left.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by RUKen

Milt Stock signed a contract on April 12th or 13th, 1921 (and was not in camp prior to signing); the Cardinal season began on April 13th, so Stock missed the entire spring training period.

I've done a little more searching. The Cardinals left Texas to head north on March 30th, 1921, two weeks before Stock signed, so he is clearly not in the picture. Adolfo Pierotti was stated in one article to be unrelated to Al Pierotti. I could not find any newspaper images of Pierotti, Paul "Turk" Eiffert, Earl Brown, or Frank Dodson, so I cannot suggest an ID for the player in the back row, fourth from the left.

[UKBaseballfan]

The player fourth from left top row appears to be 5'11". Jesse Haines next to him on one side is listed at 6'0", Ferdie Schupp on the other side at 5'10". The player is about midway in height between them. Milt Stock is listed at 5'8" further evidence it is not him. Going through the roster and picking out those players listed at 5'11" Lew McCarty appears to be a possible match. Comparison of the player in the image and an example of McCarty with Brooklyn.