AI doesnt recognize Hong Kong as a city

[Curtis]

It's directly analagous to New York City. New York has districts (five boroughs), each of which used to be a separate city. And some of these cities' boundaries are coterminous with county boundaries with different names. For examples, Brooklyn is also Kings County and Manhattan is also New York County. New York 'started' on an island (the island of Manhattan), and Manhattan itself contained many villages that were absorbed into the city as it grew.

The problem comes in that Hong Kong has a semi-independent legislature, constitution, legal system, etc. If the cities were listed as SMSAs, Hong Kong would absolutely qualify. Since the game uses the populations based on totally arbitrary geographical boundaries, counting it as a nation could be more appropriate, but then what do you do with Macau?

I have a China League in a 2006 game I haven't converted yet. One of the teams is located in Hong Kong; what can I expect to have happen to that team when I convert?

[LeafsFan2005NC]

I think that that last site just continues the common misconception that Hong Kong is a city. According to my research, Hong Kong is a province of China, so Markus and Co. where right in listing it as such. Kowloon is listed as it's largest city. Hong Kong Island itself is divided into four districts. Victoria City, former capital of the Colony of Hong Kong, is located on Hong Kong Island (just across the Harbor from Kowloon) and is listed as the second largest city.

Any league having a team in Hong Kong could still use the Hong Kong moniker, they would just have to list its home town as any of the cities in the province, most likely Kowloon or Victoria, though these are listed differently in the cities.txt file.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by LeafsFan2005NC

I think that that last site just continues the common misconception that Hong Kong is a city. According to my research, Hong Kong is a province of China, so Markus and Co. where right in listing it as such. Kowloon is listed as it's largest city. Hong Kong Island itself is divided into four districts. Victoria City, former capital of the Colony of Hong Kong, is located on Hong Kong Island (just across the Harbor from Kowloon) and is listed as the second largest city.

Any league having a team in Hong Kong could still use the Hong Kong moniker, they would just have to list its home town as any of the cities in the province, most likely Kowloon or Victoria, though these are listed differently in the cities.txt file.

Then you would have to do the same think with Beijing because it is also a provence. You are simply being stubborn. The government in Hong Kong calls it a city.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by LeafsFan2005NC

I think that that last site just continues the common misconception that Hong Kong is a city. According to my research, Hong Kong is a province of China, so Markus and Co. where right in listing it as such. Kowloon is listed as it's largest city. Hong Kong Island itself is divided into four districts. Victoria City, former capital of the Colony of Hong Kong, is located on Hong Kong Island (just across the Harbor from Kowloon) and is listed as the second largest city.

Any league having a team in Hong Kong could still use the Hong Kong moniker, they would just have to list its home town as any of the cities in the province, most likely Kowloon or Victoria, though these are listed differently in the cities.txt file.

DOLA

I'll post this again as you seem to have missed it...from the city of Hong Kongs own tourist office

http://www.discoverhongkong.com/eng/...ps/index.jhtml

With so much to do and see in and around Hong Kong, it helps if you know where you're going. Here are some maps to help you find your way around the city's major districts. Map files require Acrobat Reader. If you don't have Acrobat Reader, you can download it here.

[Sdpm100]

Originally Posted by Curtis

It's directly analagous to New York City. New York has districts (five boroughs), each of which used to be a separate city. And some of these cities' boundaries are coterminous with county boundaries with different names. For examples, Brooklyn is also Kings County and Manhattan is also New York County. New York 'started' on an island (the island of Manhattan), and Manhattan itself contained many villages that were absorbed into the city as it grew.

Yes, that is a good analogy. I guess then both the big "city" and the districts are listed for Hong Kong as it is for New York City.

The problem comes in that Hong Kong has a semi-independent legislature, constitution, legal system, etc. If the cities were listed as SMSAs, Hong Kong would absolutely qualify. Since the game uses the populations based on totally arbitrary geographical boundaries, counting it as a nation could be more appropriate, but then what do you do with Macau?

For me, there should be some common sense used by whoever creates these lists, but judging by the continuing problems with consolidated areas in Georgia, it doesn't seem as though they care.
As for Macau, I'd suggest as the current political scenario stands, it should be listed as both a city, and a country, as it is a city-state.

I have a China League in a 2006 game I haven't converted yet. One of the teams is located in Hong Kong; what can I expect to have happen to that team when I convert?

It won't have a home city.

Originally Posted by LeafsFan2005NC

According to my research, Hong Kong is a province of China, so Markus and Co. where right in listing it as such.

Whilst this may prove to be the long-term goal for China, this will come as a bit of a surprise to people in Hong Kong (and Macau). It's actually a "Special Administrative Region", and as Curtis said has much more autonomy.

And like with Puerto Rico, as it competes separately in international sporting events, I believe it should be listed as a separate nation as it stands.

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by robster1225

What is the general consensus here as to how Hong Kong should appear in the game, or did you guys determine that it's correct. I'd like to log this for Markus to fix, but I need some more info.

I think that after looking this thread over you'd have to come to the conclusion that there IS no consensus.

And, by the way, bababui had a separate issue in his originating post. Does anyone remember what it was?

[bababui]

This is kinda silly. We are confusing the political argument with the geographical one. In the context of OOTP, Hong Kong should definitly be a city. For example, Toronto is listed as a city while another of Canada's largest cities, Mississauga, isnt listed because it somehow falls under the heading of greater Toronto.

[Sdpm100]

Originally Posted by Curtis

I think that after looking this thread over you'd have to come to the conclusion that there IS no consensus.

Hong Kong city-state, Singapore city-state, Macau city-state. That I would suggest is the best way to go. For example I doubt anyone is going to know that Xianggangdao is the Chinese name for the defunct Victoria City (no, I plugged it into Wikipedia as well, and it popped out with the answer).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xianggangdao

Originally Posted by bababui

This is kinda silly. We are confusing the political argument with the geographical one. In the context of OOTP, Hong Kong should definitly be a city. For example, Toronto is listed as a city while another of Canada's largest cities, Mississauga, isnt listed because it somehow falls under the heading of greater Toronto.

I agree, but it's not likely to be changed if things that were flagged up before 2006 was even released haven't been corrected.

FYI, here's the thread for the missing Toronto "cities":
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=122787

[Sdpm100]

Okay, based on what I've found online, these are the Hong Kong cities as they are known as (in order of cities used in the default text file). I've filled in the co-ordinates for the two cities that were missing them, and added Macau and Hong Kong for those who want them.

sources - http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat....77/Main/163065
http://www.epictrip.com/Cities_in_Ch...aces-l191.html
and Google for matching places to co-ordinates.

Tai Po,332721,42,Hong Kong,22.45,114.16
Kowloon,1985493,42,Hong Kong,22.32,114.17
Kwai Chung,471636,42,Hong Kong,22.37,114.13
Tsuen Wan,271238,42,Hong Kong,22.37,114.11
Sai Kung,456020,42,Hong Kong,22.33,114.33
Sha Tin,653423,42,Hong Kong,22.38,114.19
Sheung Shui,398201,42,Hong Kong,22.52,114.12
Victoria,1320413,42,Hong Kong,22.27,114.14
Tseung Kwan O,455895,42,Hong Kong,22.33,114.25
Yuen Long,542373,42,Hong Kong,22.44,114.02
Tuen Mun,503192,42,Hong Kong,22.41,113.98

Macau,431000,42,Macau,22.17,113.55
Hong Kong,6748389,42,Hong Kong,22.33,114.18

[Curtis]

Thank you. Great work!

(And apparently even baba doesn't remember what his other issue was, so I'll just slink on out of here….)

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by bababui

Also, some of my cities are having a hard time staying recognized...like Berlin and Copenhagen which are recognized but seems to be unrecognized after logging off.

(hint)

[Sdpm100]

Originally Posted by Curtis

Thank you. Great work!

Okay, no problem. I'm pleased you like them.

I'd better go and cross-post them in the Names & Nations forum as well I guess.

[Nutlaw]

Does anything further need to be addressed/discussed here, or should I close this thread out?

[Curtis]

It's looking like bababui no longer cares about his cities being recognized, then not. So, I'd say close it. Steve said (up in General Discussions) that some of this nomenclature stuff has been addressed and some won't be. That's probably all we can expect.