So, about The Clear and The Cream?

[Jason Moyer]

Speaking of HGH and its health effects, I'm fairly curious to see what long term research ends up showing. Apparently children who have been using it as a treatment are showing a slight increase in Hodgkins disease and colon cancer but they haven't come to any real conclusions. At this point I'm kinda wondering why it's even a controlled substance, although you could say the same thing about plenty of other drugs I guess.

The idea that it helps with strength training is apparently questionable as well:

Systematic Review: The Effects of Growth Hormone on Athletic Performance -- Liu et al. 148 (10): 747 -- Annals of Internal Medicine

[CMH]

Originally Posted by KurtBevacqua

I think it's a bogus assumption to say most people would take this stuff. I ran track at a Div 1 school and there was plenty of availability of steroids. Shoot, I remember a friend of mine who was on the football team having problems bulking up and asking the strength coach what he could do. The strength coach told him, "Obviously I can't advise you to juice up, but if you did here's how I would go about it." And the coach proceeded to give him a lesson on the best mix and use of steroids. My friend was pre-med and understood all this stuff very well. He was extremely disillusioned to have an authority figure he trusted and respected go down this path. My friend refused to juice up. This was back in the mid 80's before the federal law against steroids and before the NCAA tested for it. My friend could have done this and easily gotten away with it.

The juice was there and any one of us could have gone down that path. None of my friends did it. Sure, I knew some guys on the football team were, but the point is each person can make their own choice and to assume most everyone would sell themselves out to go down this path is false. There are still some people with integrity left in this world.

The only issue I have with this argument is steroids were already knowingly harmful for the body.

Jason seems to be pointing at some new substance that is marketed off to an athlete as being better than something you buy at GNC. That athlete is going to say, "Is it illegal?" Answer. No. "Can it harm my body?" Answer. FDA hasn't tested it, but no. "And this will help me recover faster?" Answer. Yes.

Why would an athlete reject it? There are more people taking products from health stores than there are people taking illegal products from a guy named Rosco. If said athlete was told by his trainer that this product is just as healthy, just not in stores yet, that athlete will likely use it.

[KurtBevacqua]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

Pitching a baseball itself is a risk to future health. Playing professional football is a huge risk to future health. How many professional athletes retired with cripping damages to their own bodies and minds? I don't think what you said is really convincing considering the job these guys have. Players who are hiding their injuries to get playing time is essentially doing the same thing: endangering their own health to get ahead of others. Lying too.

I'm through arguing about ethics and integrity with people who don't understand the concepts. I'm the kind of person who can identify cheating and believe it is wrong. Some people either don't believe the concept exists or is just not worth considering. My arguments will never make sense to those people.

[Jason Moyer]

Obviously you understand that doing something which doesn't violate the rules of whatever competition you're talking about isn't cheating, right?

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by KurtBevacqua

I'm through arguing about ethics and integrity with people who don't understand the concepts. I'm the kind of person who can identify cheating and believe it is wrong. Some people either don't believe the concept exists or is just not worth considering. My arguments will never make sense to those people.

I think it's simply that your definition is cheating is different from some others. I understand what you are trying to say, but the cheating code you are trying to talk about is an arbitrary one that people don't have to agree on.

It's just like letting friends cut into a line in front of you. Some people consider that OK, and some others don't. It's also like understanding when can or cannot a player steal bases in a blowout game. No two follow exactly the same codes.

It has nothing to do with if people understand the concepts or not. Even if they understand your brand of ethics perfectly, they don't have to follow you.

The frustration in explaining ethics is actually rooted at the fact ethics doesn't have to make sense.

[BaseballMan]

If you are willing to say this was cheating even if it wasnt illegal at the time
then you have to say the same thing for spitball pitchers & pitchers who scuff the ball. Or players who take amphetamines to overcome the constant traveling.
It would be nice to have a non cheating baseball world like we can have in our ootp leagues but that simply isnt going to happen. The best we can have is for players to be punished when they break the rules. But you cant punish a player if it isnt against the rules.

[OldFatGuy]

Food is a performance enhancer.