Sammy Sosa was a PED User...Shock of the Century!!

[jaxmagicman]

I can't help but notice, that Barry Bonds still has not tested positive for steriods.

[CBL-Commish]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

To me PED use is worse than gambling. I haven't seen any evidence that Rose fixed games, which is what would merit the punishment he has.

To baseball betting on your own team, to win or lose, has always, always, always been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using PEDs.

[AnotherAlias]

Anotherhero shot down. Gee, this came outta the blue. Like Tim says, what a shocker.

[yankeesrule]

wait, so you mean players dont suddenly go from being mid 30's homer hitters to in the 60's? but, he hit his prime and thats how he did it

[Russ]

Originally Posted by AnotherAlias

Anotherhero shot down. Gee, this came outta the blue. Like Tim says, what a shocker.

AnotherAlias
Anotherhero

I like it.

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I honestly cant figure out the bitterness in all these threads like this. Did you guys honestly not enjoy watching guys like Clemens pitch or Bonds, Sosa and McGwire hit?

Does what Pete Rose did make you think less of him as a player?

I know I enjoyed watching them guys hit and nothing will take that away. They like many other human beings make mistakes in which most are forgivable.

I really hope this blows over at some point otherwise none of us should be able to sit and say we've enjoyed baseball over the past 20 seasons which I know is false.

If MLB would ease up on these guys a bit Im sure many more would come clean before it came to this but under these conditions they are getting everything taken away for them in which they likely didnt understand the consequences at the point they were doing these drugs.

I feel bad for the non cheaters and that is it however the non cheaters will have the luxury of being able to live a healthy life from now on while these other guys wont. They will pay for it.

Rant over.

I should add that nothing in this particular thread was bad so its probably the wrong place for this particular post.

Well, I never liked how much of an @$$hole Bonds and Clemens tended to be. Which tarnished a lot of enjoyment watching them. ANd McGwire and Sosa (and Bonds). I really abhor homermania of the late 90s/early 00s. All those high scoring games are friggin boring to me. I like the 80s/early 90s game better. Hell, I'd be happy if we went back to the deadball era, personally. I find pitching, defense, and speed more fun to watch.

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Pete Rose is different. He should be in the hall of fame, he didn't cheat.

Yes, he gambled on the sport, which is much, much worse especially for the integrity of the sport. Remember the Black Sox. Speaking of which, if we are gonna give a free ride to ROse, then we should for Jackson and Cicotte, because they put up HOF quality play too.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

To baseball betting on your own team, to win or lose, has always, always, always been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using PEDs.

I know, my point is it shouldn't be, and it never will be to me.

Originally Posted by Left-handed Badger

Yes, he gambled on the sport, which is much, much worse especially for the integrity of the sport. Remember the Black Sox. Speaking of which, if we are gonna give a free ride to ROse, then we should for Jackson and Cicotte, because they put up HOF quality play too.

Jackson et al. actually fixed (or tried to) the result of games, no-one even accused Rose of that (Not that I've ever read anyway).

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Slackker

In Sosa's case the ONLY number which gives him a shot at the HOF is 609, the amount of homers he hit. His career average was barely .250, and his OBP was only .311.

You must only be looking at his final season for the average and OBP, not his career.

Sammy Sosa Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

To me PED use is worse than gambling. I haven't seen any evidence that Rose fixed games, which is what would merit the punishment he has.

Good ****ing God. Where have you been?

Here's the Dowd Report. It's about 1100 pages of facts, and documentation.

Give yourself some time, and THEN come back and tell us that you haven't seen any evidence.

This, coupled with Rose's OWN admission that he bet on games.

Welcome to DowdReport.com

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by jaxmagicman

I can't help but notice, that Barry Bonds still has not tested positive for steriods.

I can't help but notice that you may be the last baseball fan on the planet that believes in his innocence.

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Andy

You must only be looking at his final season for the average and OBP, not his career.

Sammy Sosa Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

I looked carefully at Sosa's numbers, and I only see about 100 extra homers due to steroid use, at the most. I determined this by reducing all the big years to 40 homers. This is not unreasonable, playing in Wrigley. This gives us:

66-26 = 40
64-24 = 40
63-23 = 40
50-10 = 40
49 -9 = 40

26+24+23+10+9 = 92 homers, subtracted from his lifetime total of 609 = 517.

So, in a non-steroid era, does 517 homers get him in? Depends. His 92 few homers would PROBABLY been half hits, half outs. So, credit 46 fewer hits, and his average drops a teeny bit...but his slugging and OPS take a significant hit.

So, his stats then look a lot like Ernie Banks.

Personally, the lack of defense, the cheating, the hitting in a hitter's park, the lifetime average likely in the .260's, essentially league average, all question his candidacy.

[CMH]

Maybe this is being picky, but how does a guy with 600 career homeruns finish with an OPS under .900?

It makes me wonder whether I should want him in because he hit homeruns or not want him in because all he could do was hit homeruns.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by CMH

Maybe this is being picky, but how does a guy with 600 career homeruns finish with an OPS under .900?

It makes me wonder whether I should want him in because he hit homeruns or not want him in because all he could do was hit homeruns.

Id think youd want the 98-03 PED Sammy but for the rest of his career you make a very good point.

I dont think we could find a better example of how PEDs can effect performance more than Sammy.

He was a solid SB threat throughout his beginning years and that tapered off to basically nothing. His power numbers were 30-35 with a sudden jump that increased his HR prodction by 60-80%.

I would speculate the increase in batting average in his PED years would be the long flyouts that became homers. Id be interested in seeing Sammy Sosas hitting charts from 98-03 and his charts from 88-97. I bet we might see some unusual things.

I know it wont be long before Bill James tries to piece all of this together so we can get some sort of idea how big of an impact PEDs actually were.

[marc]

Originally Posted by Purple Cowboy

What I'm really amazed about considering PEDs in sports in America is how on earth does MLB have a worse steroid image than the NFL whose players often resemble WWE-style roid monsters?

Because baseball is more of an individual sport where as football is the ultimate team game which places less importance on individual numbers.

There just aren't that many "magic numbers" in football like there are/were in baseball.

I agree though the whole thing is ridiculous and hypocritical. Steroids are RAMPANT in the NFL.

[marc]

Originally Posted by jaxmagicman

I can't help but notice, that Barry Bonds still has not tested positive for steriods.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Good ****ing God. Where have you been?

Here's the Dowd Report. It's about 1100 pages of facts, and documentation.

Give yourself some time, and THEN come back and tell us that you haven't seen any evidence.

This, coupled with Rose's OWN admission that he bet on games.

Welcome to DowdReport.com

One of the very first footnotes: "No evidence was discovered the Rose bet against the Cincinnati Reds" (Emphasis mine), hence, he did not fix games (unless it was a much larger conspiracy), which was my point, betting on your own games in itself is bad, but no where near as bad as fixing games (cf. the Pakistani Cricket teams betting scandals). I'm not saying what he did wasn't wrong, I'm saying it's not as bad as using PEDs, because it didn't directly affect the outcome of games.

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

I know, my point is it shouldn't be, and it never will be to me.



Jackson et al. actually fixed (or tried to) the result of games, no-one even accused Rose of that (Not that I've ever read anyway).

No he didnt as far as I know, but when you mixed in with that the potential is always there where you could have to fix a game. Especially, if your debt gets steep. That is part of the reason for the stance on gambling.

Though, I should add for your later post. Of course, it affected the outcome of his games. Most likely every decision he made during the game was due to getting the win that game. Which is of course the goal. But, what if you are getting blown out? One of those games where you close the door and try to make sure you dont kill your bullpen for next game or something?

[canadiancreed]

One of the very first footnotes: "No evidence was discovered the Rose bet against the Cincinnati Reds"

Apparently there was no need. He admitted as much in his autobiography apparently that he bet on games he participated in, although he stated that he never bet against his team. Then again he always stated until then that he never bet on games was in period until that book was released so take that for what it's worth.

[Slackker]

Originally Posted by Andy

You must only be looking at his final season for the average and OBP, not his career.

Sammy Sosa Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

Ahh yes. A strange line under his 2005 season, due to missing 2006?

Anyway, even considering everything else.. he's a borderline case, and only due to his homer numbers. Not even close to someone I'd put into the Hall. Maybe if you remove his American League numbers from the beginning and end of his career. That, of course, is without including the steroids issue.