Did a pinch hitter depth chart find it's way back into OOTP 12?

[Casimir]

I always liked the PH feature. Would love to see it come back.

[Troy30]

I would like to see it come back as well. Please Markus take this into consideration.

[kckid4u]

I never understood why this important feature was taken away? It's too important to a manager to not have it. I sure wish we could get it back. For those of us who play in online leagues, it's sooooo needed!!!!

[gnomez]

I concur. This is an absolutely necessary feature for online leagues.

[Nutlaw]

Originally Posted by beorn

#1. I have actually had to get rid of useful defensive backups because they were PH magnets, constantly used over good bench hitters at crucial times. Drives me nuts

Me too. I did some testing and proved a problem, which I got logged.

[WWBL Commissioner]

Originally Posted by WWBL Commissioner

I think the biggest frustration in this is we had the feature, I used it all the time in my online league, then for no reason went away. The development team has spent time on things like wife and kids, owners etc but this thing effects actual game play. The back up catcher comment is exactly what happens to me to, he gets all the PH at bats regardless of what is happening in the game.

I wanted to keep this out front while OOTP 12 is still a work in progress. If you want this feature back please post here, hopefully we can change Markus' mind and get this put back into the game

[WWBL Commissioner]

The newsletter said all the features were not set yet so I'm beating this drum again in hopes of it making its way into OOTP12

[Dan Kalvoski]

As it's part of how I build a team, it would be most useful ... after the starters (and platoons), I look for players who can fill roles like "first LH hitter off the bench," along with roles the program does account for, like bench speed, defensive sub, etc.

On the subject of choosing PH candidates, it would be nice to be able to sort by bunting skill instead of opening up player profile after player profile to find somebody who can lay down a sacrifice ...

[Chicagofan76]

i dont remember what the feature looks liked in the previous version i played but i would love to be able to set up who i want to be the main PH vs LHP/RHP

[The Wolf]

I'd like this feature to be in the game too.

[beorn]

One place this would be especially useful would be in minor leagues when ghost players are used.

I find I can have 8 perfectly reasonable bats on the bench in the minors, guys I want to give playing time -- but when it's time to pinch hit, most every time the AI goes to trusty old Joe Unknown.

[JackRules1]

I started with OOTP9 so not familiar with this feature, but it sure sounds like a good idea.

[munstermash]

I would love to see this feature back as well.

[kingcharlesxii]

I'd like to see this as well or maybe just a flag that says "don't use as pinch-hitter except as last resort". It makes me sad when my defensive specialist is used as a pinch-hitter.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by kingcharlesxii

I'd like to see this as well or maybe just a flag that says "don't use as pinch-hitter except as last resort". It makes me sad when my defensive specialist is used as a pinch-hitter.

That flag would work.

[Syd Thrift]

What everyone else said. Two additional points:

1. I'm not completely enamored with the AI's ability to figure things out on its own in non-standard situations such as the deadball era, particularly when I, the user, do additional things to influence the way the game is played (like making fictional players with the normal spread of ratings and then heavily recalced to make them era-appropriate instead of having a bunch of guys with 160 speed).

2. For those of us who play the game without any ratings turned on, allowing the AI to go behind the scenes and use who is actually the best hitter available by ratings defeats much of the purpose of turning the ratings off in the first place. If, for example, you bench your aging 3rd baseman because he's hitting .180 in May but leave him on the roster because you're not 100% sure he's done, and then the manager refuses to use him for anything except when you put him in the lineup, that gives you information about that player that IMO you ought not to have.

[Vinny P.]

Originally Posted by kingcharlesxii

I'd like to see this as well or maybe just a flag that says "don't use as pinch-hitter except as last resort". It makes me sad when my defensive specialist is used as a pinch-hitter.

Ya know, I was pretty much going against all the same arguments in the thread in favor of a PH depth chart. Markus already explained once why he took it away. Apparently everyone up to this point seemed to have completely ignored that post.

But yeah, this would make the most sense. A little box to check inside the player profile strategy screen that says "don't use me to PH."

I also don't like the little comparison of a manager telling a bench coach he is in charge of PH someone brought up earlier. I don't like it, because for all those people who are clamoring for some kind of PH depth chart like of old, are acting more like GMs, instead of on-field managers. It's more like a GM not wanting to get involved in the game-to-game management of the team. That's the job of the manager.

If you're not going to play out your games, sorry to say, but you're going to be at the mercy of AI decisions for each and every game. Just like a GM is at the mercy of the manager's decisions in each and every game.

[Jpotapoff]

Originally Posted by Vinny P.

Ya know, I was pretty much going against all the same arguments in the thread in favor of a PH depth chart. Markus already explained once why he took it away. Apparently everyone up to this point seemed to have completely ignored that post.

We didn't ignore that, we already addressed why we don't agree with that explanation ie. we may have different ideas from the AI on what constitutes the "best hitter", we don't like the AI using our defensive specialists because it decides that player is the best hitter available to pinch hit, don't want a player who we sat on the bench for a specific reason (say want to limit his at bats in a league where we have usage penalties, or sitting him down to avoid an injury, etc.) or for pretty much every single reason people have posted as to why they want that feature back in. Many of us have even specifically mentioned Markus's explanation in our message talking about why we didn't like it. So we have hardly ignored that message.

[Jpotapoff]

Originally Posted by kingcharlesxii

I'd like to see this as well or maybe just a flag that says "don't use as pinch-hitter except as last resort". It makes me sad when my defensive specialist is used as a pinch-hitter.

Ya that bugs me a lot. You'd think that the depth chart would come into play here. That is having a player as a defensive sub in the depth chart in theory should make the AI less likely to use that player as a pinch hitter but it doesn't appear to.

[Vinny P.]

Originally Posted by Jpotapoff

We didn't ignore that, we already addressed why we don't agree with that explanation ie. we may have different ideas from the AI on what constitutes the "best hitter", we don't like the AI using our defensive specialists because it decides that player is the best hitter available to pinch hit, don't want a player who we sat on the bench for a specific reason (say want to limit his at bats in a league where we have usage penalties, or sitting him down to avoid an injury, etc.) or for pretty much every single reason people have posted as to why they want that feature back in. Many of us have even specifically mentioned Markus's explanation in our message talking about why we didn't like it. So we have hardly ignored that message.

I suppose Markus could have elaborated better than this:

Originally Posted by Markus

No, sorry. This does not make much sense anyway, as the AI ranks available pinch hitters on offensive (vs R/L) value and uses them based on the situation. Having the PH in a depth chart would not change this really.

I can understand why people would want to use PH for certain situations, but I think that the PH thing could possibly mess around with the AI's algorithm for trying to win games the best way it can.

For instance, if you put that octogenarian with 2999 hits at the top of your PH depth chart, it could be that it could screw up the AI in determining when the proper time to use a PH would be. Putting that octogenarian at the top of a PH DC wouldn't make any sense to the AI, and so would probably ignore putting anyone in to PH when it would be most appropriate.

The AI looks at ratings and game situations to determine when to use a PH, right? Say you are down by a run in the bottom of the 9th with one out, and you have your small little SS whose a great fielder, with a decent OBP up to bat, and happens to be your worst batter in your lineup w/ DH. You also have your 2999-hit guy on the top of your PH DC, and a 1B with good hitter ratings, and a 3/10 for defensive ratings at the SS position below him.

Let's say the SS has say a 3/10 in contact, 1/10 in power, and 5/10 in Eye. The 2999 has a 1/10 in Con, 1/10 in POW, and 1/10 in Eye. The 1b second in line to PH has a 5/10 in Con, 5/10 in Pow, and 5/10 in Eye.

You screw up the logic of the AI algorithm with this set-up. The AI knows this is a situation to PH for your SS, especially considering he has the lowest ratings in your lineup on your team, and is the wrong L/R split. The AI will probably compare the ratings with your SS to your octogenarian who is just.....terrible, and should have retired 4 decades earlier. So the AI will opt to skip the octogenarian and keep the SS in, because it is trying to win the game. Thereby, it effectively negates your depth chart anyway.

I assume, in laymens terms, it would be something like this:

Situation: bottom of the 9th, two outs, bases loaded, down by one.

At the plate: SS, worst hitter in the lineup using a DH.
PH slot #1: Octogenarian who is the worst hitter in the league.
PH slot #2: 1B who is average across the board in ratings.

Checksums:

SS ratings worse than PH #1; if false, do not replace.
SS ratings worse than PH #1; if true, replace SS.

PH #1 already used; if true, use PH #2
PH #1 already used; if false, use before PH #2

Looking at the logic of the checksums, it doesn't make any sense at all to have the Depth chart present. It is basically, a paradox....or rather an oxymoron, if you will.

In other words, you have to provide a compelling enough of a reason for the AI to resort to a PH in the proper situation. Using a depth chart and adding a player that is the worst hitter on your team at the number one slot of the PH DC, will effectively keep the AI from pinch hitting in any situation, no matter what. Because you have limited its options to an either/or situation between the various starters and the player in the PH slot number 1. The player in PH #1 will NEVER be used in a game, because all the starters are rated higher than him, even the sucky SS. If the number one PH on the depth chart is never used, then the player you slipped into the number two slot will never be used either, because the number one has yet to be used first.

As for teams controlled by the AI, the depth chart may or may not get filled out by the AI. If it does, it is also useless, because I don't think the AI from ATL can predict what pitcher the AI from NY will use. He could be either a Righty, or a Lefty. If the ATL AI fills in a depth chart, the ATL AI will be restricted to that depth chart, and will have to ignore L/R splits.

If the AI in general does not fill out the depth chart, and the player uses it, the depth chart is still useless, as stated before the paragraph above this one. It's a terrible oxymoronic paradox that makes no sense whatsoever. So, Markus just ditched the PH Depth Chart, and probably didn't feel like explaining the reasons why, because it's quite complicated and dicey.

On the other hand, perhaps providing a box you can check where you can have the AI skip over certain players to PH, as KC has mentioned, would probably be more effective.