Should "Take a Pitch" be nerfed? - Page 2

Barkingturtle · 01-31-2015, 10:05 AM

I play out all my games. I'm well over two thousand games played at this point. I take often, basically anyone hitting under .250 takes till they get a strike. I do it to fatigue opposing pitchers -- forcing them to waste a few pitches every time my worst hitters are at the plate. Everybody hitting over .250 can swing away.

I don't find myself accumulating an abnormal amount of walks due to this strategy. In fact, I find the opposite to be more in line with my experience. I have had players lead the league in walks, but it has virtually always been one of the guys I send up to take his cuts. The guys I take with typically end up striking out a lot, because they are not great hitters to begin with and the bat stays on their shoulder till that first strike.

Cinnamon J. Scudworth · 01-31-2015, 10:09 AM

I remember "take pitch" as a possible exploit (if abused) being the received wisdom on the forums when I first started playing OOTP, back in version 12.

It makes intuitive sense: the idea was that if you're playing pitch-by-pitch and make it a habit to just start taking pitches until you get to two strikes, the AI doesn't have the ability to react by pounding the strike zone, if I understand the pitching model correctly.

I strictly play in one-pitch mode, so I've never tested it.

Barkingturtle · 01-31-2015, 10:21 AM

I sometimes take a second strike when my pitcher is at the plate, if the count goes 2-1 or 3-1. I am actively trying to work a walk in that scenario. I don't find the strategy to be particularly effective(90% strike out rate, in my estimate), but at least the opposing pitcher is throwing those extra pitches.

I'd never take a second strike with a position player, though. Can definitely see how that could be exploitative. The mere thought makes my mouth sweat in a vomity kinda way.

Honorable_Pawn · 01-31-2015, 10:35 AM

I believe the AB is decided on the first pitch. So taking when it's 3-1 will not increase your odds of a walk. You need to take on the first pitch.

Barkingturtle · 01-31-2015, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honorable_Pawn

I believe the AB is decided on the first pitch.

Interesting -- and disappointing. I wonder then, what is the point of pitch-by-pitch play? Purely cosmetic? Should I bother trying to pick a runner off if the count is anything other than 0-0?

Honestly, not sure I buy it. I mean, I can foul off two bunts and then smack a base hit on an 0-2 count. Is that predetermined? What if I had bunted instead? Would it find a crease? I mean it should, right? If at the first pitch the game engine decided I was going to get a hit.

Cinnamon J. Scudworth · 01-31-2015, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honorable_Pawn

I believe the AB is decided on the first pitch. So taking when it's 3-1 will not increase your odds of a walk. You need to take on the first pitch.

That is incorrect, per Markus. Probabilities are recalculated pitch-by-pitch.

Airdrop01 · 01-31-2015, 11:10 AM

If anyone wants to see, just play as many games as you want in one pitch mode...

Take with every batter until there are two strikes.

Enjoy your 130 wins a season.

Again, I'm not wanting them to mess with it because I'm sure the logics of a baseball program, broken down to pitches, is complex and changing could create tons of consequences unforeseen. The primary and biggest use of the game is not people using this exploit. If they do, it affects no one so who cares.

But it is real.

Honorable_Pawn · 01-31-2015, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cinnamon J. Scudworth

That is incorrect, per Markus. Probabilities are recalculated pitch-by-pitch.

I wasn't sure about this so thank you for the link.

You just increased my enjoyment immensely!!

Honorable_Pawn · 01-31-2015, 12:48 PM

Thank you, again. I love the strategy of the pitch count. I'm so glad you posted that link because I had this misremembered.

ootp3to6 · 01-31-2015, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but one game is not nearly enough evidence of a problem.

I agree 100%. This was just an experiment on my part.

dodger300 · 02-02-2015, 04:23 AM

I only use take pitch to avoid running against a pitchout. As long as the ai can call for a pitchout I want the option to take a pitch.

zappa1 · 02-04-2015, 05:19 PM

I use the take a pitch, but not with every batter.
For instance, with a runner on 3rd and a pitcher with a low control rating, I take a few pitches 'cause I've had passed balls and wild pitches a little more than not taking a pitch.
And sometimes I take a few pitches with a batter with good contact and a good eye and a runner on 1st. Lots of times I get into a perfect 2-1 count to then use the hit and run which works very well. It's like being rewarded for using the right stratagy. So I do like the take a pitch.

clwalcott · 02-10-2015, 07:56 AM

it may be better now, but about 3-4 iterations ago, I used to essentially always take the first pitch, and at the end of a season (playing out all the games) my team OBP was about 30-40 points ahead of second place. The explanation at the time when I iasked on these boards was what's been proposed here - that the outcome of the AB is decided on the first pitch, and taking it exponentially increased the odds of a walk.

Syd Thrift · 02-10-2015, 11:22 AM

The issue is that in real life if you keep taking pitches, the pitcher on the other end will catch on and start taking off larger and larger portions of the plate as your hitters refuse to swing. They'll also catch on if you religiously refuse to swing at every other pitch (which is something I've seen people talk about doing here) or always take the first pitch (I remember the Cubs, actually, seeing some stat that said that people who put the first pitch into play hit like .330 and tried to exploit the other way around... the result was that they rarely got good pitches to hit that first pitch and hit something like .260 in 0-0 counts).

The game isn't going to catch all of that and perhaps should not be expected to. Is crafting an AI that can detect "take pitch" patterns *really* something that you want Markus to spend resources on? Because to be honest, it's just about dead last on my list, perhaps slightly above hobbit league functionality.

Honorable_Pawn · 02-10-2015, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

The issue is that in real life if you keep taking pitches, the pitcher on the other end will catch on and start taking off larger and larger portions of the plate as your hitters refuse to swing. They'll also catch on if you religiously refuse to swing at every other pitch (which is something I've seen people talk about doing here) or always take the first pitch (I remember the Cubs, actually, seeing some stat that said that people who put the first pitch into play hit like .330 and tried to exploit the other way around... the result was that they rarely got good pitches to hit that first pitch and hit something like .260 in 0-0 counts).

The game isn't going to catch all of that and perhaps should not be expected to. Is crafting an AI that can detect "take pitch" patterns *really* something that you want Markus to spend resources on? Because to be honest, it's just about dead last on my list, perhaps slightly above hobbit league functionality.

Point taken. I concede.

View Poll Results: Should take a pitch be nerfed?
Yes, it is overpowered when playing out games.	22	46.81%
No, I prefer to abuse the AI.	25	53.19%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

01-31-2015, 10:09 AM	#22
Cinnamon J. Scudworth All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 1,119	I remember "take pitch" as a possible exploit (if abused) being the received wisdom on the forums when I first started playing OOTP, back in version 12. It makes intuitive sense: the idea was that if you're playing pitch-by-pitch and make it a habit to just start taking pitches until you get to two strikes, the AI doesn't have the ability to react by pounding the strike zone, if I understand the pitching model correctly. I strictly play in one-pitch mode, so I've never tested it. __________________ "Sometimes, this is like going to a grocery store. You’ve got a list until you get to the check-out stand. And then you start reading People magazine, and all this other [stuff] ends up in the basket." -Sandy Alderson on the MLB offseason

01-31-2015, 10:21 AM	#23
Barkingturtle Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 99	I sometimes take a second strike when my pitcher is at the plate, if the count goes 2-1 or 3-1. I am actively trying to work a walk in that scenario. I don't find the strategy to be particularly effective(90% strike out rate, in my estimate), but at least the opposing pitcher is throwing those extra pitches. I'd never take a second strike with a position player, though. Can definitely see how that could be exploitative. The mere thought makes my mouth sweat in a vomity kinda way. Last edited by Barkingturtle; 01-31-2015 at 10:22 AM.

01-31-2015, 10:35 AM	#24
Honorable_Pawn Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 6,407	I believe the AB is decided on the first pitch. So taking when it's 3-1 will not increase your odds of a walk. You need to take on the first pitch. __________________ PBA Quickstart for OOTP Background Images Collection All PBA games broadcast live on Steam.

01-31-2015, 11:10 AM	#27
Airdrop01 All Star Starter Join Date: May 2009 Location: Lenexa, KS / Wilson, WY Posts: 1,354	If anyone wants to see, just play as many games as you want in one pitch mode... Take with every batter until there are two strikes. Enjoy your 130 wins a season. Again, I'm not wanting them to mess with it because I'm sure the logics of a baseball program, broken down to pitches, is complex and changing could create tons of consequences unforeseen. The primary and biggest use of the game is not people using this exploit. If they do, it affects no one so who cares. But it is real. Last edited by Airdrop01; 01-31-2015 at 11:12 AM.

01-31-2015, 10:05 AM	#21
Barkingturtle Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 99	I play out all my games. I'm well over two thousand games played at this point. I take often, basically anyone hitting under .250 takes till they get a strike. I do it to fatigue opposing pitchers -- forcing them to waste a few pitches every time my worst hitters are at the plate. Everybody hitting over .250 can swing away. I don't find myself accumulating an abnormal amount of walks due to this strategy. In fact, I find the opposite to be more in line with my experience. I have had players lead the league in walks, but it has virtually always been one of the guys I send up to take his cuts. The guys I take with typically end up striking out a lot, because they are not great hitters to begin with and the bat stays on their shoulder till that first strike.

01-31-2015, 12:48 PM	#29
Honorable_Pawn Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 6,407	Thank you, again. I love the strategy of the pitch count. I'm so glad you posted that link because I had this misremembered. __________________ PBA Quickstart for OOTP Background Images Collection All PBA games broadcast live on Steam.

02-02-2015, 04:23 AM	#31
dodger300 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 268	I only use take pitch to avoid running against a pitchout. As long as the ai can call for a pitchout I want the option to take a pitch.

02-04-2015, 05:19 PM	#32
zappa1 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 2,128	Take a pitch I use the take a pitch, but not with every batter. For instance, with a runner on 3rd and a pitcher with a low control rating, I take a few pitches 'cause I've had passed balls and wild pitches a little more than not taking a pitch. And sometimes I take a few pitches with a batter with good contact and a good eye and a runner on 1st. Lots of times I get into a perfect 2-1 count to then use the hit and run which works very well. It's like being rewarded for using the right stratagy. So I do like the take a pitch.

02-10-2015, 07:56 AM	#33
clwalcott Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 263	it may be better now, but about 3-4 iterations ago, I used to essentially always take the first pitch, and at the end of a season (playing out all the games) my team OBP was about 30-40 points ahead of second place. The explanation at the time when I iasked on these boards was what's been proposed here - that the outcome of the AB is decided on the first pitch, and taking it exponentially increased the odds of a walk.