New HW Boxers Rated

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Hey Mark,

You've heard about way more of those guys then I knew about! I've started looking at some of the different European HW's from France, Belgium, Germany, Spain, etc. to build more HW's from those countries. At some point in time I ever get a universe of my own started, I'm really interested in it having a European/International flavor to it to create European, South American, etc. champions along with the usual, WBA, World Titles,

Rocco

[mh2365]

rocco,
Do you have any kind of formula you follow for making fighters? If you do I'd like to see it. I have time on my hands (obviously with my picture posting) and wouldn't mind trying some of the smaller guys. Just not a clue where to start. Like take Deuk-Koo Kim for example. I watched the fight with Mancini and know what a tough competitor he was, but that is the only fighter in the game he fought so would I make him just slightly worse than Mancini?

If you have a formula maybe you could PM it to me, otherwise any kind of information would be helpful.

Thanks,
Mike

[crusadecat]

That was my same reluctance to rate Duk Koo Kim. I just don't think I would have enough information to confidently rate him to my comfort level at least. There have been others that I thought of as well but without that baseline of data to go on I just won't do it .

[mh2365]

I think we need Jim and Tom to rate Kim .... He was too important of a figure in the history of boxing no to be in the game. Afterall, he is the reason there are no more 15 round fights.

Going from memory (probably blown out of proportion over time) alone, it was the single greatest fight I remember seeing as a kid. I would go over to my grandfather's (who fought in a 30's golden glove tournament in Mexico City) and watch almost every fight on tv back then.

[IceTea]

I agree. I was going to rate Kim, but forgot about it. I mainly rate fighters from LH, CW, and HVW.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Mike,

Just seen your post about how I go about rating fighters. I've been out of town a few days. I don't have the time right at this moment to go into the detail so I'll post again tomorrow what I go through.

thanks!
Rocco

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Tod Herring - USA
1959-1967

27 wins / 6 losses / 0 draw / 20 KO

Alias: Carl
Hometown: Houston, TX

Rating by: Rocco Del Sesto

Herring's built his career to a 24-2-0 record including winning the Texas State Heavyweight Title in April 1963 defeating Sonny Moore. Some of Herring's other noteable opponents during that span were a 10 round UD over Tunney Hunsaker(Ali's first career professional opponent), a 2nd round KO of Harold Carter, an 8th round KO loss to Tony Alongi, a 10 round decision loss to Alonzo Johnson, a 10 round decision win against Bill McMurray and then a 9th round KO of Alonzo Johnson.

Then in March 1964, Herring got his first real test against more of the heavyweight upper class when he went up against Zora Folley. Herring managed to go 6 rounds before Folley KO'd him in the 7th round. After a couple of KO wins against a Roy Rogers(7-0-1 at the time) and Elmer Rush, he got into the ring in Stockholm, Sweden against Floyd Patterson in May 1965. Herring was no match for Patterson as Floyd knocked him out in the 3rd round.

That fight was followed by a 4th round KO at the hands of Elmer Rush in August 1965 and then after not fighting for close to a year, in June 1966 Herring was stopped again early in a fight, this time a 3rd round KO by Cleveland Williams. Herring fought only one more time in his career before hanging them up, a 4th round TKO win over a Jack Johnson(2-2-2).

Herring is another one of those examples of a guy building a real nice looking record against the usual array of mostly punch bags that a young upward moving boxer is expected to beat to gain higher status. But, once Herring got the chance against the tougher competition, he quickly showed he was not good enough to become even a fringe type contender.

Enjoy....
Rocco

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Werner Wiegand - Luxembourg
1949-1964

40 wins / 23 losses / 5 draws / 19 KO

Hometown: Luxemburg
Birthplace: Dortmund

Boxing Record lists his Nationality as Luxembourg

Rating by: Rocco Del Sesto

A busy trailhorse heaveyweight of the 50's and early 60s. He fought predominately out of Luxembourg and Germany but fought some in other parts of Europe. He fought many of the recognizable European HW's of the 50's and early 60's if you study that heavyweight boxing scene. A decent punch but with a weak chin suffering 19 stoppages in his 23 losses.

His more noteable fights included wins over Richard Grupe(24-5-6 at the time), Piet Wilde, Wilson, Kohlbrecher, Tommy Farr, Prosper Beck(would fight once for the Belgium HW title despite an 0-16-0 career record!), Robert Eugene, Gunther Nurnberg, Uber Bacilieri, Jose Peyre twice and Frankie Daniels.

He fought draws with Al Hoosman twice, Gunther Nurnberg and Stephane Olek.

Losses were suffered at the hands of Johnny Williams, Gunther Nurnberg twice, Kurt Schiegl, Robert Eugene, Wilson Kohlbrecher, Ingemar Johansson, Franco Cavicchi twice, Maurice Mols, Dick Richardson, Hans Kalbfell, Brian London, Alain Cherville twice, Emile Vidal, Mario de Persio, Robert Duquesne, Benito Penna, Benito Canal and Federico Friso.


Enjoy...
Rocco

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Frankie Daniels - USA
1948-1964

37 wins / 35 losses / 6 draws / 22 KO

Hometown: Bakersfield, CA

Rating by: Rocco Del Sesto

A busy trailhorse of the 50's and early 60's with a decent punch and chin but was just never good enough to beat the higher contenders, though he got a good number of chances againts some of the top heavyweights of the time period.

Up through probably the prime of his career he put together a respectable 33-14-2 record. Guys that he fought that are in the game or been rated by others he mostly lost against. He did beat Eddie Cotton and Young Jack Johnson and drew with Howard King, but he lost fights to Bob Murphy, Jimmy Beau, Clarence Henry, Lloyd Marshall, Bob Satterfield(twice), Eddie Cotton, Archie Moore, and Cleveland Williams.

After loosing a 10 round UD to Williams and then winning 3 fights in late 1957 by KO, his career then started taking a new direction getting taking on fights with many more opponents who we've seen rated in the game. Unfortunately, these fights were probably taken on after his career abilities would appear to have peaked and during this latter stage he only mustered a 4-21-4 record! The only noteable wins were against Bob Baker and Ulli Nitzschke. He drew fights with Lou Bailey, Ulli Ritter and Federico Friso. The list of opponents lost to is quite long....Cleveland Williams, Sonny Liston, George Chuvalo, Ernie Terrell, Erich Schoppner, George Logan, Karl Mildenberger, Sante Amonti, Franco DePiccoli, Wim Snoek, Ulli Nitzschke, Wayne Bethea, Johnny Prescott, Wim Snoek, Werner Wiegand, Albert Westphal.

Some other guys he was able to beat who had a decent looking record at the time, though the quality of the opponent probably not of much stature were Rodney Jones(13-1-0), Lonnie Malone(14-2-3), John C. Curtis(13-7-2), Sonny Andrews(13-8-1), Bob Dunlap(31-9-1). Some other losses were to Sylvester Perkins(26-7-1), Willie Bean(39-19-4), Joe Dorsey(14-3-1), Peter Bates(29-12-4), Alonzo Johnson(21-11-0) and Plinio Scarabellin(27-3-0).

Enjoy...
Rocco

[mh2365]

Originally posted by Rocco Del Sesto
Mike,

Just seen your post about how I go about rating fighters. I've been out of town a few days. I don't have the time right at this moment to go into the detail so I'll post again tomorrow what I go through.

thanks!
Rocco

Thanks Rocco, any help would be appreciated

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Mike was asking what I do about rating fighters. Nothing very scientific about it. I don't profess to say if my method is altogether that accurate, but, for the sake of wanting to create more heavyweights, especially in the European theater, I'm going about it the best way I know of not knowing anything about most of these guys other then what I learn about them on Boxing Rec.

Basically what I do it look at a guy's record and break it down his wins on how many are stoppages and his losses by how many times he was stopped in a fight. I also look at any DQ losses. If he has 1 to 2 DQ losses I'll make his Fouls rating Occassionally. 3 or more I'll make him Frequent. If he's somebody with say 20 or so fights or less in his career and he had 2 DQ's, I'd probably then make him a Frequent rating.

I then look to see who he's fought that's already in the game data base, guys that was in there originally or who I or others have added. I look at his other opponents who I don't have rated fighters for and looking at thier records make a determination if the rest of the opponents look to be mainly 1 rated fighters, maybe 1 to 3 or whatever. I'll then let the auto scheduler build a schedule first automatically for the total career bouts of the fighter I'm working on with the rating range of opponents I feel best suit. I'll then put in manually the fighters who I have in my data base and deleted as needed any of the auto scheduled fighters to come back to my career fights total. I'll then set the "Repeats" to 10. So then I'll keep rerunning this schedule in these set of 10 bouts to each opponent. So in other words if a fighter I'm working on had 30 career bouts, I'll have 30 opponents set in the schedule and the repeats set at 10 for each opponent. So when I sim the schedule, my fighter will have fought 300 bouts.

I then look at the total Wins/Losses/KO's/Times he's stopped/and DQ's to some extent. You simply divide the totals by 10 to compare the average of each of those to his actual career. It's then just a matter of keep simming and tweeking ratings around until I feel I've achieved a good average of Wins/Losses/KO's and Times he's stopped compared to actual career numbers.

A lot of the rating numbers you set are of course just random picks at what I give I guy. the Control ratings for most of these journeymen fighters you know I usually going to be 7 or less. The HP's you can determine should be so high depending on the number of KO's he has. His Chin, cut, recovering ratings can be determined to some extent by how many times he's stopped in his career. Most of these guys I figure their defense, fast/slow, draw power, conditioning, and Intellect are not especially good.

Again, I then just sim and tweek till I get his record numbers averaging out fairly close as I can. Now, some of you who've been rating fighters since the days of TF2001 or even the old Title Bout board game may find ways to totaly pick apart what I've just described as not being very accurate. But, all these guys, all I got to go on is the BoxREc of them so, I sim to get their career numbers to work out as close as possible. In the end I hope to create a pretty good data base of heavyweight fighters to then to a universe where I've got that bottom heavy portion of the punching bags, tomato cans, trailhorse fighters, whatever you want to call them, that the top maybe 10 to 15 percent if that much of the "cream" of the heavyweights fought many of thier fights against to build the early portions of thier career.

And of course your always welcome to tweek around what I've done to whatever suits you. I'm having fun with it just finding these other heavyweights.

Now I will say that my method I've found can have some problems with it if you got a figther who has fought maybe mostly unrated fighters who are mostly "punching bags" as far as thier career's were. What you could end up with is if you got a guy who had a real good Win/Loss record against these mostly "punching bags" your rating numbers could get spiked higher then probably what the guy deserves, because the rated 1 fighters in my data base are prabably currently better then even most of a guys actual opponents were. A good example of this is a fighter I'm working on right now. His name is Tony Hughes. He fought from1956 to 1963 compiling a 25-4-0 record with 9KO's. He was stopped only 3 times himself. The only guys he fought that I could find in my current data base were Alonzo Johnson, Henry Cooper, Franco DePiccoli(whom I rated) and Bob Cleroux. The rest where nothing much at all to talk about from what I could see. Well what's happened is with those handful of guys put in with a bunch of random 1's, to get his W/L and stoppage numbers to come out, his rating numbers are way higher then what you'd think this guy should deserve. His control ratings right now are both 8 and his punching numbers are very good. The game auto calcs an overall rating of 4! In my mind looking at what he's fought he no way can be a 4. His opponents are just too good on what I got in the data base currently. Now I've taken the auto rating for overall and at times have down graded it by 1 maybe, sometimes 2 or up 1 if I felt it should be, but for a 4 down to 1! What I'm realizing here is as I dig deeper into these more obscure fighters, I'm seeing where I'm probably going to have to create a bunch of generic "punching bag" fighters with terrible ratings to sim these guys against to get a better representation of what thier ratings probably should be.

Well anywho, I've rambled enough on this. So there it for what its' worth what I do. I've attached the Tony Hughes rated as I got him now, so you can see if you want what I mean by his higher then they should be ratings.

Rocco

[IceTea]

Samuel Peter Heavyweight 18-0 17 KOs....................

http://www.boxinginsider.net/news/stories/82733084.php

[IceTea]

Alex Stewart is the best amoung them.

[IceTea]

Billy Conn Heavyweight Challenger to Joe Lewis

I thought it would be interesting to rate Billy Conn as a heavyweight. He has Joe Lewis beat, but went for the KO and was KOd himself.

MJ

[IceTea]

Please download this version of Billy Conn and extract it over the one I issued in my last post. I made an error in a couple places.

[wildhawke11]

Billy Conn
He never fought Joe Lewis LOL

Try again


Its Joe Louis -- The Brown Bomber

Ice ---- your not the first and i dont suppose you will be the last to get the names Lewis and Louis mixed up
Cheers
Danny

[IceTea]

MY bad, it was late, I should have been in bed.

MJ

[sabotai]

Rocco, FWIW, when I have needed truely horrible opponents for fighters, I have created fighters with incredibly bad ratings. I find that this does help get better results for guys that were not all that good, but did beat up on some people.

I think it was mentioned before, but it doesn't seem like this game was designed to sim fights with truely horrible fighters. It becomes a problem when rating guys who mostly faced truely horrible fighters.

[Catalion]

Do we need a shop for tomato cans?

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Sabotai,

Thanks for your comments. That's generaly what I'm looking at doing is creating some really bad rated guys (which I had a handful done from my Gerhard Zech replay) to better test these lesser knowns who still fought a handful of fights against some of the better know fighters.

It has been talked about I'm pretty sure also that TBCB was set up as a replay without the intent of all these other lesser known fighters. But, what's great with this game is there is that fexibility to set up pretty much what you want. Me I'm interested in seeing these Werner Weigands, Frankie Daniels and Tony Hughes in my game. I feel they're an important part of doing any kind of "historical" replay. Are all these extra rated fighters going to be "historically accurate"? In many cases not, I'm sure, just from the fact that we know so little about them and that the rating system of the game really is not set up for all these "1" fighters. Many of these "tomato can" fighters are probably more like 0's, -1's, -2's even in comparison to the 1's that were in the game originally.

It's all what you want to get out of the game and what you want to do with it to be satisfied with it.

Rocco