Dante Culpepper Sucks / Evaluating QB's

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

I also pretty much pinpointed it by saying that Moss and T.O. are worth about 20 points of QB rating.

Heh. Pass the ganja, bro.

[Steve Kuffrey]

Wins and losses - that is the bottom line in a QB's effectiveness.

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by Steve Kuffrey

Wins and losses - that is the bottom line in a QB's effectiveness.

That risks confusing the ability of the QB with the ability of the team as a whole. It's not a mistake you make with a shortstop. The only difference is that the stats mean less in football. They're still a guide, if a murkier one.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

That risks confusing the ability of the QB with the ability of the team as a whole. It's not a mistake you make with a shortstop. The only difference is that the stats mean less in football. They're still a guide, if a murkier one.

Trent Dilfer knows how to win!

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

Which is pretty amazing considering that the team is far worse than pre-2004, outside of TO. They have absolutely no run game and McNabb is still doing as well as he was when they had a run game. That's all T.O., baby.

bump

[SWardle]

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

Or ping: guy who was arguing with me before the infamous board crash.

In that thread not only did I predict a hefty decline for Culpepper's rating (and an increase in Collins') this season, I also pretty much pinpointed it by saying that Moss and T.O. are worth about 20 points of QB rating.

No, I didn't start the thread entirely to say, "Told ya so."

I could piss and moan about sample size much like you did in our original thread, but I won't. Daunte had a horrible half of a season but to lay it all off on the loss of Moss? Well, I'll leave that idiocy to you.

Although this thread does make me wonder; where is your smarmy little post bragging about your "CARNELL WILLIAMS IS THE REAL DEAL!!!" thread? So don't stroke yourself too hard, kiddo. You're still nothing more than a band wagoning homer.

Steve-O

[sebastian0622]

Originally Posted by SWardle

I could piss and moan about sample size much like you did in our original thread, but I won't. Daunte had a horrible half of a season but to lay it all off on the loss of Moss? Well, I'll leave that idiocy to you.

Although this thread does make me wonder; where is your smarmy little post bragging about your "CARNELL WILLIAMS IS THE REAL DEAL!!!" thread? So don't stroke yourself too hard, kiddo. You're still nothing more than a band wagoning homer.

Steve-O

I hate the Yankees and Notre Dame. I respect USC's football program but root against them. I can't stand Duke or NC basketball. I've always despised the successful Lakers, and I've never rooted for Tiger Woods. My favorite basketball player ever is B.J. Armstrong. Football? Quite a few but Jerome Bettis as much as anyone.

Bandwagon? You know me so well, friend.

btw, I was saying Dante was overrated far before Moss left. This isn't about Bandwagons; that's just a personal jab you are creating because it hurts to watch someone be right about a guy you were pulling so hard for.

I said Culpepper is a fine QB when he's playing well. I even said he may prove to be a top 10 QB down the road if he fixes his turnover problems. You're just mad that I made the (IMO) uncontroversial observation that he's not elite, and he's not top 5, and Randy Moss made him 15-20 QB rating points better than he really is. And as that all gets proven right, if it makes you feel better about yourself and your team to call me a bandwagon jumper, then I guess I understand. People who take sports way too seriously often have a hard time coping with their favorite players and teams falling from grace.

[JWay]

Daunte isn't the best QB on his team, when healthy, let alone in the top 30

[Skipaway]

With Brad Johnson getting the playing time, maybe we can use him as another yardstick soon enough.

[Luis_Rivera]

Originally Posted by JWay

Daunte isn't the best QB on his team, when healthy, let alone in the top 30

So, I guess you could have slotted any of the other starters in the NFL on the Vikes last year and had them have one of the greatest seasons of all time?

[sebastian0622]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

With Brad Johnson getting the playing time, maybe we can use him as another yardstick soon enough.

Thinking about the WR impact "study" thing? I'm fascinated by it, so it would be cool to think you were on the "bandwagon" (shout outs to my brother SWardle) with a similar interest.

[Mark Guest]

I don't feel like reading through this, but has anyone mentioned how Moss made Jeff Randle and an old Randle Cunningham pro bowl quarterbacks when no one else would even sign them?

[sebastian0622]

Originally Posted by mlyons

bump

It's going to be interesting to follow. On the one hand, McNabb put up his 3rd highest QB rating game of the season without TO versus a tough 'Skins defense. On the other hand, based on how poorly he was performing with TO this year compared to the past few years with TO, it's hard to know how much his injury had affected him earlier this year. So if stays healthy from here on out and plays just as well without TO as he did with him, the question will be how much did the injury in the early season affect him?

Anyway, I fully expect a healthy McNabb to perform no better without TO for the remainder of the season than a seriously injured McNabb played with TO earlier in the season.

[Luis_Rivera]

The offense has hit the ****s as a whole... Culppepper is having an awful year, that's for sure. However, the offensive line has played as one of the worst in the league... which has also resulted in the running game going from one of the best in the league last year, to below average this season.

[Luis_Rivera]

Originally Posted by Steve Kuffrey

Wins and losses - that is the bottom line in a QB's effectiveness.

What the hell? So I guess Archie Manning really sucked!

[sebastian0622]

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

The offense has hit the ****s as a whole... Culppepper is having an awful year, that's for sure. However, the offensive line has played as one of the worst in the league... which has also resulted in the running game going from one of the best in the league last year, to below average this season.

But for 7 years the Vikings had changed personnel, not had great running backs and lacked a #2 receiver. They did generally have talented O-linemen, but there were a few seasons when that was kind of in question outside of Birk. But, everything always seemed to work out very well. The O-line always came through, Bennett/Williams/Smith/Moore/whoever you put behind the line could run, Cunningham/Culpepper/Frerotte/whoever you put behind center could pass.

Then all of a sudden Moss leaves and all of that falls apart, and I'm supposed to believe that's coincidental?

It's easy to have a good running game when there are only 6 defenders in the box. It's easy to have a good passing game and kill the defense on screens when Moss is thrice bracketed and the rest of the field is 10-on-8.

The Vikings have not coincidentally fallen apart on the 8th year when Moss left. They lost their magic wand.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

The offense has hit the ****s as a whole... Culppepper is having an awful year, that's for sure. However, the offensive line has played as one of the worst in the league... which has also resulted in the running game going from one of the best in the league last year, to below average this season.

Brad Johnson did OK in a role more limited than Culpepper had. Maybe it's just proving Culpepper is not that great? Or is it the sample size of Johnson?

[sebastian0622]

dola,

Look at 2004 Oakland. A hapless team heading into 2005 relying on a career backup RB in Lamont Jordan and an OOTP scouting report "...but a smart GM may look to upgrade" QB in Kerry Collins, along with a bunch of underachieving WR's in Jerry Porter and Ronald Curry who were quickly shaping up to be the next Tai Streets/Koren Robinson. Add in a muddled mess up front, and you had a recipe for total offensive disaster. You couldn't name one player on that offense (line included) in the top 10 at his position in the NFL. You'd have a hard time making a convincing argument that the Raiders offense was much superior to that other team down the road a little ways.

Enter Randy Moss, and the 2005 Oakland Raiders have scored 202 points (12th in total points per game) and are 6th in the league in passing yards per game--and Randy hasn't even been fully healthy yet.

[Mark Guest]

Jerry Porter was an emerging star last season and Ronald Curry showed a lot of promise, so that statement should be revised.

[Luis_Rivera]

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

Then all of a sudden Moss leaves and all of that falls apart, and I'm supposed to believe that's coincidental?

Now, I wouldn't say that it's unrelated, but I think it's putting too much stock in the fringe benefits of having a certain dominant reciever. I would very much doubt that losing Moss can attribute for any more than 50% of the collapse of Culpepper & Co... especially the OL.

Of course, I don't have anything really tangible to give you in defense of my position so I'm not expecting you to change your opinion by any means... Remember, though, corellation does not necessarily equal causation.