Every player on the 40 man roster does NOT need to have a ML contract!!

[bp_]

Originally Posted by endgame

On another note, I've just finished putting quite a few minor-leaguers on to 40-Man rosters and I haven't seen any awarded ML contracts as a result of it, so it must be a team GM/AI decision to correlate the two. This one I'll keep looking into further.

did u sim a day and then check? I added a guy to the 40-man and nothing happened but after I simmed a day he had a major league minimum contract.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by bp_

did u sim a day and then check? I added a guy to the 40-man and nothing happened but after I simmed a day he had a major league minimum contract.

Yes, I did. Simmed a few days in fact. But like I said, I'll keep looking at it to see if there are any correlations. Did you see this in a GM role, or in an Act As role, or simply browsing around?

[andymac]

Originally Posted by endgame

Because he still has a ML contract.

Are you sure that is a rule? I would think that if he clears waivers the team should be able to place him wherever they want (providing that he accepts the assignment).

[bp_]

Originally Posted by endgame

Yes, I did. Simmed a few days in fact. But like I said, I'll keep looking at it to see if there are any correlations. Did you see this in a GM role, or in an Act As role, or simply browsing around?

I was a GM of my team and did this just after applying the patch. Screen shots in this thread.

[bababui]

I started an MLB style uni with full minors. The AI, after the draft, automatically awarded ALL players on the 40 man roster major league contracts. The problem is eight or nine of them didnt deserve them or to be on the 40 man roster in the first place.

I went into Comish mode and erased the MLB contracts but I cant seem to get them off the 40 man roster like I could pre patch.

My suggestion is to only put the original 25 man roster on the 40 man roster. Give the human manager the opportunity to decide who he or she wants to fill out the 40 man roster and who they want to leave exposed to the Rule 5 draft.

Increasingly things are being taken 'out of our hands'.

[bp_]

Originally Posted by andymac

Are you sure that is a rule? I would think that if he clears waivers the team should be able to place him wherever they want (providing that he accepts the assignment).

You are right here. A player can be in the majors, designated for assignment which takes him off the 40 man roster, if the player has enough service time he has the option to choose FA or choose the assignment to AAA. When going back to AAA he isn't really on a major league contract any longer unless he had signed a guaranteed deal at some point prior.

I still think the 6.5 roster management was close to perfect and Markus needs to try to model that again.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by bp_

You are right here. A player can be in the majors, designated for assignment which takes him off the 40 man roster, if the player has enough service time he has the option to choose FA or choose the assignment to AAA. When going back to AAA he isn't really on a major league contract any longer unless he had signed a guaranteed deal at some point prior.

I still think the 6.5 roster management was close to perfect and Markus needs to try to model that again.

Maybe it's getting late, but now I'm confused. Are you saying that you agree with andymac and that a ML contract player doesn't have to be on the 40-Man? That's the way OOTP has always treated the ML contract. And how does that reconcile with your comments here, which started my original interest in this in another thread?

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by bp_
Am I missing a setting that makes sure major league contracts must be on the 40-man roster?

I just signed a guy to a major league deal and the game let me demote him to AAA without adding him to the 40-man roster. 40-man rosters are turned on and I'm using the patched version of OOTP2006.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Edit: And andymac, I'll check out your question. I recall its 'ruling' in OOTP, but frankly don't know for sure how the MLB treats it.

[bp_]

Originally Posted by endgame

Maybe it's getting late, but now I'm confused. Are you saying that you agree with andymac and that a ML contract player doesn't have to be on the 40-Man? That's the way OOTP has always treated the ML contract. And how does that reconcile with your comments here, which started my original interest in this in another thread?

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by bp_
Am I missing a setting that makes sure major league contracts must be on the 40-man roster?

I just signed a guy to a major league deal and the game let me demote him to AAA without adding him to the 40-man roster. 40-man rosters are turned on and I'm using the patched version of OOTP2006.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Edit: And andymac, I'll check out your question. I recall its 'ruling' in OOTP, but frankly don't know for sure how the MLB treats it.

It's a matter of timing. In the text you quoted from me I had just signed the guy to a mjor league deal. Why would any player sign a major league deal and then accept a demotion to the minors? It wouldn't happen. If he was good enough to get a major league deal on the FA market he's going to want to pitch in the majors.

Now, if he's on the major league roster and sucking and I want to DFA and then waive him other teams get a shot at claiming him. If no one wants him then I can try to assign him to AAA. If he has enough service time he should be able to reject that and become a FA.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by bp_

It's a matter of timing. In the text you quoted from me I had just signed the guy to a mjor league deal. Why would any player sign a major league deal and then accept a demotion to the minors? It wouldn't happen. If he was good enough to get a major league deal on the FA market he's going to want to pitch in the majors.

Now, if he's on the major league roster and sucking and I want to DFA him other teams get a shot at claiming him. If no one wants him then I can try to assign him to AAA. If he has enough service time he should be able to reject that and become a FA.

But if he does not decide to reject, I would think he could be placed on a minor league roster without having to be moved back on to the 40-man roster.

[bp_]

Sounds like we all need a transactions primer:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/transanctionsprimer.html

"Options"
After three years as a pro, a player must be protected on a team's 40-man roster, or he is eligible for the Rule 5 draft (more on that later). Once he's served those three years, and assuming he is added to the 40-man roster, his club then has what are called "options" on him.
When a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the 25-man Major League roster, he is on "optional assignment." One common misconception about the rules is that a player may only be "optioned out" three times. Actually, each player has three option years, and he can be sent up and down as many times as the club chooses within those three seasons.
When you hear that a player is "out of options," that means he's been on the 40-man roster during three different seasons, beginning with his fourth as a pro, and to be sent down again he'll have to clear waivers (more on those below).
Waivers
Waivers just might be the most complicated single aspect of the rules. In the rule book, a waiver is defined as "... a permission granted for certain assignments of player contracts or for the unconditional release of a Major League player ..."
If a player placed on Major League waivers is not claimed by another team during the three business days after waivers have been requested, then the players is said to have "cleared waivers," and the team has secured waivers for the remainder of the waiver period.
And what does that mean? Essentially, the team can do with the player's contract as it pleases. This generally means one of three things:
(1) They can send him to the minors (subject to his consent, if he's a "Veteran Player," more on that below).
(2) They can release him, which makes the player a free agent and thus available to sign with any team.
(3) They can trade him to another team, even if the so-called "trading deadline" has passed. Any trades made after July 31 may only involve players who have cleared waivers.
If a player doesn't clear waivers -- in other words, if he's claimed by another team or teams -- the club requesting waivers may withdraw the waiver request.
If the club doesn't withdraw the waiver request, the player's contract is assigned in the following manner:

• (A) If only one claim is entered, the player's contract is assigned to that claiming club.
  (B) If more than one club in the same league makes claims, the club currently lower in the standings gets the player.
  (C) If clubs in both leagues claim the player, preference shall always go to the club in the same league as the club requesting waivers.

There are other, more esoteric rules involved here. For example, during the first 30 days of the season, the previous season's final standings are used to determine claim order, rather than the current standings.
Designated for Assignment
You'll sometimes read that a player has been "designated for assignment."
What does this mean? Essentially, it allows a club to open up a roster spot while it figures out what it's going to do with a player. As we'll see below, there are certain situations in which a team needs a player's permission to either trade him or send him to the minors. So rather than force the player to make a quick decision, the team can simply designate him for assignment while he decides.
More commonly, a player is designated for assignment so the club can open up his roster spot while they're waiting for him to clear waivers, which can take four or five days. Occasionally, a club will designate a player for assignment while they're trying to trade him. That's what happened to Hideo Nomo this past June.
"Called Up" vs. "Contract Purchased"
When a player is summoned from the minors to the majors, you'll see that he was either "called up" or his "contract was purchased." For most practical purposes, this really doesn't make much difference. If he's already on the 40-man roster, he's called up. If he's not on the 40-man roster, then his contract is purchased (for a nominal fee) from the minor-league team.
However, the player must be added to the 40-man roster when his contract is purchased, which often necessitates dropping another player from the 40-man roster, whether by release or trade.
"Veteran Players"
Any player who has been in the major leagues for five full seasons may not be assigned to a minor-league team without his written consent. This sometimes puts the team in a bad position, because a player with five years has every right to say, "I don't want to go to New Orleans. You can either release me and keep paying me, or keep me on the major league roster and keep paying. Your choice."
Also, a player with five years of service time who is traded in the middle of a multi-year contract may demand another trade prior to the start of the season following the one in which he was traded.
Any player with at least 10 years of Major League service, the last five of which have been with one Major League Club, may not be traded to another Major League Club without his written consent. This is commonly known as "the five-and-ten rule."

[bp_]

Originally Posted by andymac

But if he does not decide to reject, I would think he could be placed on a minor league roster without having to be moved back on to the 40-man roster.

Exactly.





It's complicated.

[endgame]

wikipedia

Each Major League Baseball team maintains both a 25-man roster and a 40-man roster of players, year-round. The 25-man roster is the list of eligible players who may play in a game. The 40-man roster includes the 25-man roster plus players in the minor leagues who are paid major league salaries as well as players on the 15 day disabled list


http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/of...egulations.jsp

The 40-man roster:
A Club's 40-man roster is a list of all the players currently reserved by a Club at the Major League level. The Major League Rules permit each Club to reserve a maximum of 40 players (excluding players on the 60-day disabled list) at any one time. From September 1 through the end of the season the entire 40-man roster is eligible to play for the Club at the Major League level. From Opening Day through August 31, however, a Club may use only 25 of its 40 players in the Majors.

The wikipedia version is the way I've always interpreted the 40-Man rule and the way, as I know it, that OOTP has always implemented it. Am I mistaken? The MLB version certainly allows room for debate, notwithstanding any other documentation in their rulebook.

Now all this assumes OOTP is able to handle the transactions exactly as MLB rules permits and as described in the above primer. I'm not certain it can, does, or has historically. Bears some research and I appreciate all of your comments, input, and willingness to explore this together.

And I will continue to look into it.

[bp_]

Originally Posted by endgame

wikipedia

Each Major League Baseball team maintains both a 25-man roster and a 40-man roster of players, year-round. The 25-man roster is the list of eligible players who may play in a game. The 40-man roster includes the 25-man roster plus players in the minor leagues who are paid major league salaries as well as players on the 15 day disabled list

I was actually just going to post this and my apologies for over-reacting earlier. After pondering things I remember this past spring that teams would announce contract signings by guys they added to their 40-man roster the previous winter but they never disclosed the $ amount. I forgot about this. I assume most of these players get the major league minimum so if OOTP assigns the league minimum contract value to a player added to the 40-man roster then the game is handling this correctly as of patch 2.

This still doesn't resolve the complaint of some that OOTP adds players to the 40 man that don't need/deserve to be on it upon league creation.

[bp_]

One other thing here before I sleep -

I went back and check, OOTP 6.5 did not assign a minimum major league contract to a player after he was added to the 40 man roster. That would only happen when the player went on the active 25 man roster. This was the other source of my confusion.

[endgame]

Well, the other thing on my radar is still trying to find a way to duplicate the contract-creation seemingly as the result of putting the player on the 40-Man. I simply haven't been able to do it. But like I said, we'll keep an eye on it together and I'm certain we'll come to some resolution, definition, and ultimately move on any action that needs taken, if necessary, to remedy any deficiencies in the financial setup. Thanks for the helping hand.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by bp_

One other thing here before I sleep -

I went back and check, OOTP 6.5 did not assign a minimum major league contract to a player after he was added to the 40 man roster. That would only happen when the player went on the active 25 man roster. This was the other source of my confusion.

And before I head for bed - Also 6.5 would not let you have a man with a major league contract who was not on the 40-man. If he refused the assignment (demotion) your option - in the form of its message - was to put him on the 40-Man Active OR release him. In this case, your FA comment is exactly right.

[Zeyes]

I also used to think that every player with an ML contract needs to be on the 40-man roster (and posted here as much...mea culpa), but I'm pretty sure I was wrong about that. Looking over the transactions and roster pages at mlb.com, it does appear that outrighting a player with an ML contract does remove him from the 40-man roster (while presumably not voiding his contract).

Now, whether this only applies to guys who had their contract purchased in the season (and are thus making the league minimum), or also to those players who signed a guaranteed contract, I have no idea.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by bp_

Sounds like we all need a transactions primer:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/transanctionsprimer.html

And to add to that, BTF's Transactions Primer:

Transaction Primer v1.0

A few years ago, Rob Neyer wrote up a Transactions Primer for ESPN to cover some of the major rules governing baseball transactions, which is still housed at http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/1999/0908/46397.html. Rob hasn't had a chance to update it, so I figured I'd try my hand at filling in some of the holes.
The Draft

This is where most American and Canadian athletes start his path to the Major Leagues. The draft is held every year in June with clubs selecting players based on reverse order of their win-loss records from the previous season and the leagues alternating selections. The American League gets the first pick in odd-numbered years with the National League obviously getting it in the even-numbered.
The number of rounds has varied historically, but a team has the option to drop out of the draft at any point and if all the teams drop out, the draft simply ends. If you are a resident of the United States, Canada, Puerto Rico or any other U.S. territory, you're eligible for the draft. Once you sign either a major or minor league contract, you're ineligible for all future drafts. Foreign-born players are currently not subject to the draft.
A club keeps the rights to a player until a week before the next draft or enrollment in a four-year college. Also, a club cannot draft a player in two consecutive drafts without the player's written consent.
Once a player drafted has signed with the club, he cannot be traded until the following year's amateur draft (the Pete Incaviglia Rule).
The Minors

In the minor leagues, the rosters are managed in quite a different manner than the standard 25-man rosters in the majors. Minor league teams keep two separate lists of players. The first is the Active List which, like in the NFL, denotes which players are eligible for the current game while the second list, the Reserve List, is the entire roster of the team.
AAA and AA clubs are allowed to put 24 players on the Active List for the first 30 days of the season, 23 players on the Active List from the 31st day until August 10th and then 24 players again for the rest of the season, including the playoffs. The Reserve List limit, however, is always 38 players for AAA and 37 players for AA teams.
For A teams, the Active List limit is 25 players, for Short-Season A teams, 30 and for Rookie Teams, 35. All levels below AA allow clubs a Reserve Limit of 35 players. Below A-ball, only 25 players may actually get into a single game.
Players may be loaned to other minor league organizations, but must be returned by September 30.
As in the majors, there are two disabled lists. The normal disabled list only has a 7-day minimum as opposed to the 15 days used as the limit for the majors. The 60-day DL, or Emergency Disabled List, works the same as in the majors; the player doesn't count against any roster limits but cannot be reinstated until either 60 days have passed or the season ends.
Rule V Draft

Once a player is signed by an organization either through the draft or as a free agent, the clock immediately starts ticking on the club's exclusive rights to the player.
After 3 complete minor league seasons (or 4 if the player was younger than 19 on the preceding June 5), a player comes to one of the major crossroads of his career. At this point, a team has to decide if they want to sign the player to a major-league contract (adding him to the 40-man roster which consists of 25 active players and 15 on optional assignment) or if they want to let the other teams have a shot at him.
Players that have the minor league seasons required and are not added to the 40-man roster are eligible for baseball's Rule V draft. A player can be drafted by another organization for a sum of $50,000. The catch, however, is that if the player is ever removed from his new team's 25-man roster during the next season, he has to be offered back to the original club for half the price, or $25,000.
A player not on the 40-man roster and not taken in the Rule V draft remains under contract with his current organization. If the player has less than 6 years of minor league service, he can elect to be a minor league free agent, thus getting out of Rule V consideration for all intents and purposes.
The 40-Man Roster and Options

Now that the player is on the 40-man roster, another clock starts ticking. He's signed to what amounts to a major-league contract, but the organization has a limited number of seasons in which to keep the player on the team for good. A player can be removed from the 40-man roster at any time, but removing a player from the 40-man roster results in the player having to pass through waivers.
Once a player is added to the 40-man roster, the parent club can send him down to the minors on "optional assignment" in 3 separate seasons. You don't need to actually be on the 25-man roster for an option year to be used; being on the 40-man roster in spring training and optioned to the minors before the season is enough to make the season count as an option year. If a player is never sent down, however, he doesn't use an option year.
Also, despite it being a major league contract, the minimum for players on the 40-man roster and not the 25-man roster is $37,000 plus collective cost of living increases since 1999.
After the three option years are up, a player must pass through waivers to be placed on optional assignment.
When a player is designated for assignment, the player is essentially in limbo. He doesn't count against any of the roster sizes and this is used while you either try to trade the player or get him to accept a minor league assignment.
When a player is placed on waivers, other teams have a shot at claiming him, in order of worst record in the same league to best record in same league to worst record in opposing league to best team in opposing league. For the first month of the season, the W-L record of the previous season is used. When a team places a waiver claim on a player, the new team is subject to the same option rules. For example, if the Red Sox claim Joe Schmoe off waivers because he was out of options when the Devil Rays sent him down, the Red Sox would then have still to pass Schmo through waivers to send him down to their own minor league team.
There are two disabled lists in the majors. The 15-day disabled list forces teams to keep players out for a minimum of 15 days and does not count against the 25-man roster. The 60-day or Emergency disabled list requires a minimum of 60 days on the shelf and doesn't count against either the 25-man or 40-man roster.
Service Time

Service time is accrued for every day spent in the majors. If a player spends 20 days or less of the season on optional assignment, the player is given service time for the entire season. This is to prevent various shenanigans if calling up a player at the end of April to buy an extra year of rights.
Service time allows the player more authority over how his contract can be assigned.
A player with 10 years or more Major League service, the last 5 being with the team he's currently on may not be assigned to another team without his consent.
A player with 5 years or more Major League service cannot be optioned to the minors without his permission. He must be offered his release. In the case of a player signed to a Major League contract as a free agent, and thus almost certainly signed to a guarantee contract, still has to be paid according to the provisions of his contract.
A player with 3 years or more Major League service may not be removed from the 40-man roster without his permission. The player can opt to be released immediately or at the end of the season.
A player may elect to become a free agent whenever he is removed from the 40-man roster starting with the second removal of his career. The player may opt to not become a free agent but to become a free agent after the season.
A player with 5 years or more Major League service that is traded in the middle of a multi-year contract may, during the offseason, require his new team to either trade him or let him become a free agent. If the player is eventually traded, he's not eligible to demand a trade again under the current contract and loses free agency rights for 3 years.
Salaries and Arbitration

A player may not make less than the league minimum of $200,000.
Players with one or two years of service time and players between two and three years of service time (except for the 17% with the most service time) can have their contracts renewed automatically by the team if they cannot come to an agreement. When renewing a contract, a team cannot reduce a player's pay by more than 20% from the prior year or 30% from the year before that.
Players with 3, 4, or 5 years of service time and the top 17% of the 2 year players may opt for arbitration in order to come to a contract.
The club' proposal may not be less than 80% of the player's salary the previous year. The exception here is that if a player won an arbitration award the prior year that resulted in a 50% or greater salary increase, there is no maximum paycut allowed in the proposal.
Arguments that are not allowed in an arbitration hearing include the state of the team's finances, previous offers made during salary negotiations between the player and the team, any press comments or testimonials with the exception of media-supported awards like the MVP Award or salaries in other sports or occupations.
A player with a non-guaranteed contract or an arbitration award may be released up until the 15th day of spring training with 30 days' pay or from the 16th day of spring training until the opening of the season with 45 days' pay.
When a player is claimed on waivers, the new team takes on the contract. When a player is released in the middle of a guaranteed contract, the new team only has to pay league minimum with the old team footing the rest of the bill.
Free Agency and Compensation

A player that has accrued 6 complete years or more of service time at the end of a season and does not have a contract is eligible for filing for free agency, after which the player can sign with any team he wants.
To receive compensation for a player that signs with another team, the team must offer the player salary arbitration.
The team must offer salary arbitration to the player by December 7 or will not be allowed to negotiate with or sign the player until the following May 1. After arbitration is offered, the player has until December 19 to either accept or refuse salary arbitration. If it is refused, the player can only negotiate with the club until January 7th, after which no more negotiation can take place until May 1.
The compensation formula is based off a negotiated formula, heavy on triple crown stats, for the previous 2 seasons. Type A players are those that rank in the top 30% of his position. Type B players are those that rank below top 30% but still in the top 50%. Type C players are those that rank in the top 60% but not the top 50%.
A type players fetch the 1st-round draft pick of teams in the top half of W-L record or a 2nd-round draft pick of teams in the bottom half of W-L record and an additional pick between the 1st and 2nd rounds. B types don't get the sandwich pick and C type players fetch a sandwich between the 2nd and 3rd rounds. The higher the player's ranking in the compensation formula, the higher priority the old team gets in acquiring draft picks.
Something that's never mentioned is that there are still limits to the type of free agents that teams may sign.
If there are 14 or less type A and B players available, no team may sign more than 1 type A or B player. If there are 15-38 available A and B players, no team may sign more than 2. From 39-62 this becomes 3. The club quota increases accordingly for higher totals of available free agents. There is no maximum allowed for type C free agents. Lastly, a team can sign up to as many type A and B free agents as they've lost, regardless of the above quota.
Major League free agents come with an automatic no-trade clause until after the next June 15.

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/..._2002-07-04_0/

(There's some good info in the comments at that link too.)

So it sounds to me as though a player on the 40 man must have, as it says, at least a 37K$ contract. Note, however, that the above was written in 2002 so it has probably increased since then.

It also sounds pretty clear to me that players should be allowed to be demoted and not on the 40 man after passing through waivers.

As for whether a player can have a MaL contract while not being on the 40 man, I believe they can. I'd be surprised if after demoting a player to the minors, after having him pass through waivers, that his MaL contract is cancelled in favour of a MiL contract. A guaranteed contract is a guaranteed contract, is it not? I wouldn't trust that wikipedia quote above.

Where is Workrate? I believe he was our expert in this area and had some contacts inside MLB that he got this kind of info from.

Here's something else I think we've been doing wrong:

When a player is released in the middle of a guaranteed contract, the new team only has to pay league minimum with the old team footing the rest of the bill.

...

There is definitely a monetary difference between being a free agent and being released prior to being a free agent. If a player with a guaranteed contract is released, he's not really a pure "free agent." If Bob Smith has a 5-year, $25 million contract and is released, he's not free to negotiate a new contract (unless the team buys him out) but merely to pick what team to play for as he's still bound to the monetary terms of his contract.

I made a distinction because it's a point that's commonly misunderstood.

If the Blue Jays tried to send Raul Mondesi down to the minors and refuses the assignment and becomes a free agent, many people think that he also walks away from the contract because of the use of the term "free agent." If Mondesi refused assignment, he wouldn't be a true free agent as he can pick a new team, but not a new contract and the Blue Jays don't get to walk away from it.

[Bishop]

Looks like this may be an odd one then.

Simmed 10 years, just randomly picked KC to look at.

Terry Palmer, currently in AAA.

Years on 40 man roster: 1 year, 4 days.

Current Salary: Minor League Contract.

Other players on KC are like him.

[bp_]

Originally Posted by Bishop

Looks like this may be an odd one then.

Simmed 10 years, just randomly picked KC to look at.

Terry Palmer, currently in AAA.

Years on 40 man roster: 1 year, 4 days.

Current Salary: Minor League Contract.

Other players on KC are like him.

Not necessarily anything odd about it. If he's not currently on the 40-man it is possible he was signed to a minor league deal before the most recent season and would only have a minor league contract.

If he is on the 40-man it seems like the game should be assigning a major league minimum contract. At least, that is my experience with Patch 2.