Did a pinch hitter depth chart find it's way back into OOTP 12? - Page 3

Vinny P. · 02-24-2011, 09:31 PM

Dola,

For those who would legitimately use the PH depth chart to where it would make sense by putting your best hitters at the top, would still make the depth chart useless, because the AI would use those hitters in that order anyway, with the exception of pitchers and catchers. Markus already stated that the AI uses catchers as pinch hitters only in extreme situations anyway.

The only legitimate way of using the depth chart to specify an order that the AI could actually use, and in a different order than the AI would use anyway, is the whole "young player" thing. I can see a situation where perhaps you have a young player in their early 20s, who is not the best hitter on the bench, but is still better than 2 or 3 players in the lineup. Maybe you want to try to get him some extra at bats.

In this case, simply having some sort of checkbox that has to do with pinch hitting in the strategy section might benefit these people more. Maybe you can have two boxes to check, and you can only check one or the other, leaving of them grayed out; or checking neither.

In one box, you can check to have a player:

"Never pinch hit." (A catcher, perhaps.)
"Prefer to use as a pinch hitter" (A young player whom you would like to give a few extra ABs.)

This gives the AI increased flexibility in determining your wishes in a way that it can execute that makes sense to try to still balance your wishes with winning ball games in close/late situations.

It knows that you are giving preference to the young ball player to PH in a close situation, but will not STRICTLY use him first.

So now the AI can bring in your young player to Pinch hit for those weaker than him in the starting lineup. But it can also bring in the bench 1B with 5s across the board (with nothing checked) for players in between the young guy, and the 1B.

So, it could go something like this in ranking ratings:

Starting SS < Starting 2B < Young (benched) SS < Starting 3B < Starting 1B < Bench 1B < everyone else in the starting lineup.

With the "prefer to pinch hit" checked in the young SS strategy section and nothing checked in any other players' boxes, the AI knows you would want to give preference to the Young SS to pinch hit in situations where he is better than someone in the starting lineup. This include the Starting SS and 2Bmen. But it gives the AI the flexibility to win games that makes sense by allowing it to place in the benched 1B for the Starting 3B and 1Bmen.

As it currently is, the AI will throw in that Benched 1B for the starters at SS, 2B, 3B, and 1B, whichever is currently at bat the moment the AI decides it needs a pinch hitter.

But with the check box, you could have the compromise of programming the AI to have the Benched (young) SS replace the Starting SS and 2B, and the Benched 1B could replace the Starting 3B, and 1B.

For those who like the traditional route, they don't have to check any boxes for any players, and the AI will use PH how it currently does.

udbacker58 · 02-25-2011, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Me too. I did some testing and proved a problem, which I got logged.

I have noticed this as well and added in your logged issue that my fictional online league switched to the DH after 30+ years without it because we just couldn't stand watching defensive replacements being used as the first PHs because their overall rating was higher than better offensive reserves. Hopefully this will be included and we can go back to the way things were.

kckid4u · 02-25-2011, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinny P.

For instance, if you put that octogenarian with 2999 hits at the top of your PH depth chart, it could be that it could screw up the AI in determining when the proper time to use a PH would be. Putting that octogenarian at the top of a PH DC wouldn't make any sense to the AI, and so would probably ignore putting anyone in to PH when it would be most appropriate.

I hardly think having a PH depth chart would confuse the AI any more than any other lineup or depth charts that are already used in the game and set up by users. It didn't confuse the AI when it was a game feature before in previous versions. Me thinks you protest too much....

Vinny P. · 02-25-2011, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kckid4u

I hardly think having a PH depth chart would confuse the AI any more than any other lineup or depth charts that are already used in the game and set up by users. It didn't confuse the AI when it was a game feature before in previous versions. Me thinks you protest too much....

Perhaps it doesn't necessarily confuse the AI. However, it is still rather redundant, and makes very little sense to utilize a PH DC from a programming POV. I already explained why in as much detail and as clearly as I could muster.

Also, *I* protest too much? haha, I didn't come in here saying I won't buy the game because of such-and-such like someone did earlier. Forget who it was. lol.

I just think you don;t like my long posts.

Jpotapoff · 02-25-2011, 01:03 AM

You're right a pinch hitter depth chart would be redundant. Just like the bullpen depth chart is. Why should we have a say on how we feel our players should be used/ranked when the computer can just do that for us?

Vinny P. · 02-25-2011, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jpotapoff

You're right a pinch hitter depth chart would be redundant. Just like the bullpen depth chart is. Why should we have a say on how we feel our players should be used/ranked when the computer can just do that for us?

Please read posts number 40, and 41. If anything, read post number 40, since that one pertains to dealing with a pinch hit depth chart, and post number 41 pertains to an alternative system from a depth chart.

If you are unclear as to what I was trying to explain, I will gladly attempt to explain it in a clearer manner. I'll need a little more time in order to do so.

kckid4u · 02-25-2011, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinny P.

Also, *I* protest too much? haha, I didn't come in here saying I won't buy the game because of such-and-such like someone did earlier. Forget who it was. lol.

Well, it certainly wasn't me. I've bought every version since time began and certainly never said I wouldn't be buying this version.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinny P.

I just think you don;t like my long posts.

You got me there!

Basically, for me, this used to be a feature in previous versions of OOTP, and it worked very well, so I don't see why there would be any problems in it working again. It's pretty simple, and I'm pretty sure if given the option, 99.9% of the game's users would love to see this feature return.

Vinny P. · 02-25-2011, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kckid4u

Well, it certainly wasn't me. I've bought every version since time began and certainly never said I wouldn't be buying this version.

So have I, since stb3k.

Quote:

You got me there!

Basically, for me, this used to be a feature in previous versions of OOTP, and it worked very well, so I don't see why there would be any problems in it working again. It's pretty simple, and I'm pretty sure if given the option, 99.9% of the game's users would love to see this feature return.

Ok, since you asked, I'll try to explain in a briefer and clearer way in a programmer's POV of why the depth chart is redundant.

I'll use my team as an example, rather than listing positions.

Starting SS: Amsalu Mbingu. Worst hitter in my lineup. Excellent middle infielder, the best in the league.

On the bench I have:

MIF Jemke Koolen. Even worse of a hitter, but should (hopefully) retire at the end of the season, but is on the verge of getting his 500th homerun. Currently has 498.

MIF Vin Palermo (as myself.

) A very promising young middle infielder with very raw talent, and higher current hitter ratings than Koolen and Mbingu.

If I were to place Koolen above Palermo in the pinch hit depth chart, this is how it would work with the AI:

The AI will use the depth chart strictly. (Otherwise, it's a waste of space if it skipped Koolen and went for Palermo instead.) The AI also wants to maximize its chances of winning a ballgame.

Scenario I:

The AI, when it decides it may be time for a pinch hitter; generally when the L/R split favors the pitcher and the rating of the current hitter (Mbingu) that is coming up; doesn't present a good chance of bringing home the run....the AI would do a check between Mbingu and Koolen. If the AI decides Mbingu presents a better chance of bringing home the run, then Koolen will not be brought in to pinch hit because the AI was programmed to maximize its chances to win the ballgame. If Koolen will not be brought in to pinch hit for Mbingu, then Koolen will never be brought in to pinch hit for anyone. Ever. Because Mbingu is the worst hitter in the starting lineup, but is still better than Koolen. Except maybe for an injury or something. If Koolen is never brought in, then Palermo cannot be brought in either since he is lower in the depth chart.

If the AI was allowed to skip to a lower spot in the depth chart to perform a check on Palermo, it violates the depth chart that you want the AI to use. Without the depth chart, it would use Palermo anyway, thereby making it redundant.

Also, if you want the AI to definitely use the pinch hitter on top of your depth chart for the lowest-rater hitter in your starting line-up, it would probably disrupt the logic of the AI to try to win a close/late game. How/when would the AI ever decide to use Koolen in favor of Mbingu? It couldn't, because there is never a better time than any others to use him, because he is and always will be, the worse of the two hitters. You would also disrupt the AI for other players who purchased OOTP, because they may not ever want to replace anyone in their starting lineup for a pinch hitter.

Scenario II

Palermo is on top of the depth chart ahead of Koolen. Scenario II is also useless, because the AI would use Palermo without the DC anyway.

Scenario III

(Solution of using a simple check box in strategy screen in post number 40)

Scenario III for use in a depth chart gets even more complicated if you take the situation as described in post number 41, involving more players on your team. The end result of which would revert back to Scenario I, only it would take a more complicated, convoluted loop than the first Scenario without accomplishing what you, as the end-user, would be satisfied with.

You can easily do away with a depth chart, which would have to place necessary restrictions on the AI to follow the thing strictly, due to the second scenario. Hence, post number 41 describing the usefulness of two different check boxes for player strategies involving pinch hitting. This wouuld keep the AI flexible enough to follow your wishes as much as possible while still trying to win a close/late game as well (Post #41....hint, hint!).

Post number 41 is where I would get my Scenario III for the depth chart problem. This is a scenario in which more than two players would be involved on the bench, and more than one player in the starting lineup. Once again, as described is in post number 41.

Notes:

1. If a program has a redundant piece of code in it that doesn't make much of a difference whether that code is there or not, it is by far always better to just remove said piece of code, in order to simplify the entire code. For one, if your program contains an AI, a simpler code makes for a better-functioning AI. Smaller code also makes for quicker loading times and smaller file sizes. Always a plus especially for those d/l the game; and even more especially for those playing in online leagues.

2. Sorry. I kept this as brief as possible. Hopefully this post makes more sense than post number 40. If you are confused about what I meant in post 41, then please, go ahead and say so if you are confused, and truly want to know what I was talking about. I shall try my best to clarify.

udbacker58 · 02-25-2011, 09:19 AM

Vinny, so you're basically saying just let the pinch hitting AI code do it's job?

Vinny P. · 02-25-2011, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by udbacker58

Vinny, so you're basically saying just let the pinch hitting AI code do it's job?

No, I'm saying a combination of two different check boxes in a player strategy screen would be a much better and more flexible solution than a depth chart.

The Wolf · 02-25-2011, 12:57 PM

I agree with Vinny.

Syd Thrift · 02-25-2011, 02:50 PM

Yeah, darn it. Upon further review I can definitely see where having something as seemingly simple as a PH depth chart can have far-reaching consequences, consequences which, to truly rectify them, you'd need to have additional boxes like "only remove this guy for a PH if there are platoon issues" or "regardless of whether or not the PH you have is worse, get this guy out of there from the 7th inning on". That seems more and more unwieldy and more and more like

One thing, then, I'd like to see more of is more differences in personality between the managers. I know they all have sliders which tell them to behave differently in different situations but I have to admit that this effect is hard to notice. It might be enlightening for someone to run some test leagues using the same team to see how different managerial styles affect play.

02-25-2011, 09:19 AM	#49
udbacker58 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,140	Vinny, so you're basically saying just let the pinch hitting AI code do it's job? __________________ Heartland Baseball League Commissioner Fictional - Stats Only - 30 years of History! HBL HOME PAGE \| HBL REPORTS HOME \| HBL UTILITIES HOME

02-24-2011, 09:31 PM	#41
Vinny P. Banned Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,518 Infractions: 0/1 (4)	Dola, For those who would legitimately use the PH depth chart to where it would make sense by putting your best hitters at the top, would still make the depth chart useless, because the AI would use those hitters in that order anyway, with the exception of pitchers and catchers. Markus already stated that the AI uses catchers as pinch hitters only in extreme situations anyway. The only legitimate way of using the depth chart to specify an order that the AI could actually use, and in a different order than the AI would use anyway, is the whole "young player" thing. I can see a situation where perhaps you have a young player in their early 20s, who is not the best hitter on the bench, but is still better than 2 or 3 players in the lineup. Maybe you want to try to get him some extra at bats. In this case, simply having some sort of checkbox that has to do with pinch hitting in the strategy section might benefit these people more. Maybe you can have two boxes to check, and you can only check one or the other, leaving of them grayed out; or checking neither. In one box, you can check to have a player: "Never pinch hit." (A catcher, perhaps.) "Prefer to use as a pinch hitter" (A young player whom you would like to give a few extra ABs.) This gives the AI increased flexibility in determining your wishes in a way that it can execute that makes sense to try to still balance your wishes with winning ball games in close/late situations. It knows that you are giving preference to the young ball player to PH in a close situation, but will not STRICTLY use him first. So now the AI can bring in your young player to Pinch hit for those weaker than him in the starting lineup. But it can also bring in the bench 1B with 5s across the board (with nothing checked) for players in between the young guy, and the 1B. So, it could go something like this in ranking ratings: Starting SS < Starting 2B < Young (benched) SS < Starting 3B < Starting 1B < Bench 1B < everyone else in the starting lineup. With the "prefer to pinch hit" checked in the young SS strategy section and nothing checked in any other players' boxes, the AI knows you would want to give preference to the Young SS to pinch hit in situations where he is better than someone in the starting lineup. This include the Starting SS and 2Bmen. But it gives the AI the flexibility to win games that makes sense by allowing it to place in the benched 1B for the Starting 3B and 1Bmen. As it currently is, the AI will throw in that Benched 1B for the starters at SS, 2B, 3B, and 1B, whichever is currently at bat the moment the AI decides it needs a pinch hitter. But with the check box, you could have the compromise of programming the AI to have the Benched (young) SS replace the Starting SS and 2B, and the Benched 1B could replace the Starting 3B, and 1B. For those who like the traditional route, they don't have to check any boxes for any players, and the AI will use PH how it currently does. Last edited by Vinny P.; 02-24-2011 at 09:47 PM.

02-25-2011, 01:03 AM	#45
Jpotapoff Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 182	You're right a pinch hitter depth chart would be redundant. Just like the bullpen depth chart is. Why should we have a say on how we feel our players should be used/ranked when the computer can just do that for us?