The DH

[thehatfield]

I used to dislike the DH, but then I realized I was just posturing as a traditionalist and really had no personal reason to advocate against it. Now I don't care one way or the other. I usually just use whatever the default league settings are.

[ThatSeventiesGuy]

I keep current rules in historicals, but never use DH in fictional leagues, at least so far. Got a scenario wherein a second league forms after WWI in my fictional league, so I might start using it in that league once I get to the 70's.

My historical is more of a semi-historical. Real transactions, but I have two 1986 NL expansion teams that never existed in real life. Also, four 8-team divisions (currently in 1999), only four teams make the playoffs. Brewers stayed in AL, 'Stros will stay in the NL when the time comes. Take that, Selig! I still have the "deech" in the AL, though, so I guess I'm not quite as traditionalist as some of you guys.

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by blazertaz13

For those who play fictional leagues, I am curious how many of you remove the DH from your fictional leagues. Personally I hate the DH as I love the strategy involved with pitchers batting late in games.

If you do not allow for the DH, how many remove the DH from your minors. Once again since I don't allow DH in my ML, I don't allow DH in my minors.

Once again I am just curious.

Thanks

Taz

In some of my fictional leagues I use the DH, and in others I don't. I live in Cleveland, so the DH sort of comes naturally for me.

I've always been lazy with how I run my minor league teams. If a minor league has the DH, I leave it as is, even if it's absent at the ML level.

[Elektranaut]

Pitchers hitting skills are diminishing.......read on....
MLB pitchers are increasingly terrible hitters. | SportsonEarth.com : Matthew Kory Article

[Elektranaut]

Every so often I'll come across a pitcher who can hit...I have a guy at the moment whose a legitimate hitter....gets up to approx .230.......one game he threw a 6 hit shut-out and scored 4 RBI's on 5 hits!Poor bloke didn't even get Player of the game!

Interestingly Cricket has a tradition of the All Rounder...sometime who is equally profficent at batting and bowling.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by Elektranaut

Pitchers hitting skills are diminishing.......read on....
MLB pitchers are increasingly terrible hitters. | SportsonEarth.com : Matthew Kory Article

That is my biggest gripe with pitchers hitting, or more accurately, simulating someone attempting to hit. It has become almost unbearable to watch and frustrating to watch two outs and men on base die because you know with a high degree of certainty what is going to happen.
Pitchers OBP is just over 15%. Sports is not fun when the outcome is almost predetermined.
Part of the job of the organization running professional sports sports is improving the entertainment quality of the product. Having a DH does not.

I think it is time the NL strongly considering adopting the rule as well. Offense has been falling for a variety of reasons and if further decreases I could see the DH being brought up as something to increase run production again.

Another significant issue is that the players union is strongly for the DH since it creates 15 more jobs at starters level money and extends the careers of older players and gives team more option to call up from the minors and helps reduce older players blocking younger players since you can play the younger player at the DH or move the existing player to the DH.
It also gives you another platoon option so you can have two players benefit. Or you could even have strange multi player platoons where a player plays in the field a few games a week and is at the DH.
Having a player in the field may be of benefit against certain pitchers or in certain parks.

Finally, when the next CBA rolls around it will be a bargaining chip. The owners will be willing to give up on the DH as a concession for something else.
Plus it is even really not all bad for owners. A DH has the potential to be a star player who can move tickets and merchandise.

At this point in baseball there are just too many positive arguments for the DH and no enough negative arguments and most of those start with 'tradition' or 'I don't enjoy it'

I say this with all do respect, but the sport is not just for you any longer. Baseball desperately needs to makes its average fan age younger and this could be a small way of doing that.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

That is my biggest gripe with pitchers hitting, or more accurately, simulating someone attempting to hit. It has become almost unbearable to watch and frustrating to watch two outs and men on base die because you know with a high degree of certainty what is going to happen.
Pitchers OBP is just over 15%. Sports is not fun when the outcome is almost predetermined.
Part of the job of the organization running professional sports sports is improving the entertainment quality of the product. Having a DH does not.

I think it is time the NL strongly considering adopting the rule as well. Offense has been falling for a variety of reasons and if further decreases I could see the DH being brought up as something to increase run production again.

Another significant issue is that the players union is strongly for the DH since it creates 15 more jobs at starters level money and extends the careers of older players and gives team more option to call up from the minors and helps reduce older players blocking younger players since you can play the younger player at the DH or move the existing player to the DH.
It also gives you another platoon option so you can have two players benefit. Or you could even have strange multi player platoons where a player plays in the field a few games a week and is at the DH.
Having a player in the field may be of benefit against certain pitchers or in certain parks.

Finally, when the next CBA rolls around it will be a bargaining chip. The owners will be willing to give up on the DH as a concession for something else.
Plus it is even really not all bad for owners. A DH has the potential to be a star player who can move tickets and merchandise.

At this point in baseball there are just too many positive arguments for the DH and no enough negative arguments and most of those start with 'tradition' or 'I don't enjoy it'

I say this with all do respect, but the sport is not just for you any longer. Baseball desperately needs to makes its average fan age younger and this could be a small way of doing that.

This ain't right......

1) Did you ever stop to think that maybe the extensive use of the DH in all levels below the majors is THE cause for pitchers' hitting to not be as good as it was?

2) I agree wholeheartedly with the part of your statement that I bolded, though I think maybe you are not saying what you meant to say..... Pitchers are maybe a little less than half as good at hitting than the regulars, but when 1 of them does something great with the bat, it is MORE than twice as entertaining.

3) I think there are enough die-hard anti-DH'ers in the NL to prevent it from being adopted anytime soon. I really think it more likely the AL will abandon it, though I don't think that is very likely either.

4) Not one argument for the DH is wholly "positive"; they all have their flip-side of negative side-effects.

5) I did not realize it was wrong for me to not like something because I do not enjoy it......

6) My personal opinion on the issue has nothing to do with tradition. There are many traditional things in baseball I would gladly do away with; I am no stick in the mud. My objection has almost 100% to do with the fact that it is artificial. I almost always prefer the natural over the artificial in just about anything in life. Arbitrary things always stick in my craw. I like pitchers hitting, but a more natural implementation of the DH rule would have been to just skip the pitcher's spot in the order. The fact that a DH is used instead is based almost 100% on the fact that a 9-man lineup is traditional. By your own logic that it is not fun to see the less adept hitters bat, then the DH should not just bat for the pitcher, but should bat for everyone. Let's just put our best hitter up there every time. He can be pinch-run for if he gets on base and can then bat again. Wouldn't it be more "fun" to watch Joey Votto hit 40 times a game rather than only 4 or 5? Then I would not ever have to witness the other wanna-be's in our lineup....

7) One of the strongest allures of baseball is the joy of witnessing uniqueness. And the DH rule removes one of the ways uniqueness could find its way into the game. If they had the DH rule since the get go, we'd have no Rick Wise no-hitter/homer combo, Dave McNally grand slam or John Smiley 4-hit day. And who would have ever found out Babe Ruth could hit?

[thriller13]

I do not want to watch Shaq shoot 3's or Peyton run the option or pitcher's bat. Long live the DH.

[Kronos]

Originally Posted by Questdog

1) Did you ever stop to think that maybe the extensive use of the DH in all levels below the majors is THE cause for pitchers' hitting to not be as good as it was?

That's actually an argument for the adoption of the DH in the NL, pitchers don't hit anywhere anymore, if they came up in the minors doing so that would be one thing, but they don't, it's almost silly to have them DH for years and years then hand them a bat suddenly.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Kronos

That's actually an argument for the adoption of the DH in the NL, pitchers don't hit anywhere anymore, if they came up in the minors doing so that would be one thing, but they don't, it's almost silly to have them DH for years and years then hand them a bat suddenly.

That's also an argument for eliminating the DH in the minor leagues.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by ThatSeventiesGuy

I keep current rules in historicals, but never use DH in fictional leagues, at least so far. Got a scenario wherein a second league forms after WWI in my fictional league, so I might start using it in that league once I get to the 70's.

My historical is more of a semi-historical. Real transactions, but I have two 1986 NL expansion teams that never existed in real life. Also, four 8-team divisions (currently in 1999), only four teams make the playoffs. Brewers stayed in AL, 'Stros will stay in the NL when the time comes. Take that, Selig! I still have the "deech" in the AL, though, so I guess I'm not quite as traditionalist as some of you guys.

In my EBL vs MLB league the EBL AL has had the DH since 2015. The NL adopted the DH in 2020. Both leagues lose the DH in 2026. After I get past the point to where I no longer have a history for the league, 2037 ish then i will turn Evolution on and see what happens. i am adding the DH to MLB NL in 2024, next season. The CBF has the DH in both leagues.
I like double switching and it makes the game more fun to play without it. Also OOTP is the 1st PC game where I can bat the P 8th, So I would like to do that more. Right now none of my pitchers can hit.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by thriller13

I do not want to watch Shaq shoot 3's or Peyton run the option or pitcher's bat. Long live the DH.

You can't help but like this. Now every Center can hit a 3.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNwrfwi0JLE

[Afino]

Majors, no.

Minors, yes.

[metsguy234]

I'm an NL fan, but I've grown more indifferent about the DH over time in real life. Just doesn't matter much to me either way.

I absolutely disagree with the earlier poster who said that it's more likely for the AL to eliminate the DH than for the NL to add it. The NL is the only major baseball league that doesn't yet have the DH. The MLBPA loves it, because it extends the careers of both hitters (who can still be useful even when their fielding skills have diminished) and pitchers (who don't have to risk injury while hitting). MLB loves it, because it creates more offense, which makes the game more appealing to most casual fans.

In my games, I typically add the DH in both leagues - for the simple reason that it saves me time in manager mode because I don't have to make as many substitutions. I'm lazy, I know.

[Hasta la vista pelota]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

That's also an argument for eliminating the DH in the minor leagues.

And in colleges, American Legion and high schools, where it never had any business being.

Face it, it's everywhere except the NL and it's not going away. Yes, if pitchers were used to hitting, by all means, keep it in the big leagues. But I agree that if they hadn't hit since they played in Little League, it doesn't make a lot of sense for them to do it now.

To answer the original question, I use it as it was used through history. Yes in AL leagues after 1971, yes in the minors and no in the NL.

[Padreman]

Pinch hitting will be a lost art just like pitchers that can handle a bat once the DH takes over the NL

[Amazin69]

Originally Posted by CalvinHobbes

I'd rather see another 'professional' hitter up there taking swings than watch another pitcher who doesn't even want to be in the batters box being overmatched.

I'd rather see an athlete shouldering the same burden as every other athlete on the field (having to play both defense and offense and have his strengths at one exceed his possible deficiencies at the other) than have some geriatric fat-ass haul his overpriced butt out of the dugout for a few sporadic swings while sucking up a roster spot that could go to a more versatile player. Removing the DH would force the David Ortizs out of the game? Adios, Big Papi. Don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you.

And the idea that MLBPA would never agree to allow the DH to be removed is silly. Yes, the utility infielder who would replace the over-priced DH would make less money…initially. But what would happen is that market economics would correct itself, that the amount of $$ the owner is willing to spend on actually-useful players would end up flowing to those players, just as it does now. If the Sawx aren't paying Ortiz his $16,000,000 to make his four lousy cameos per game, then that money would go to keeping a Lester, a Peavy, or an Ellsbury in town, or it would be more money for the internationl acquisitions fund. The budget is the budget. Just because a certain portion of it would no longer go to has-beens who can't tie their shoes without assistance doesn't mean it wouldn't be spent elsewhere. So what's bad for the current crop of DHs would good for the next crop of catchers, infielders, outfielders and, oh, yes, pitchers.

You know, the players who actually play the game.

(And for those thinking it's only a matter of time until the NL adopts the rule…the NL hasn't even held a vote on the issue since 1980. So, don't hold your breath.)

[Matt Arnold]

The more I look, the more inevitable it is that the DH will come into play soon for every league. Pitchers have never been good at hitting, but they've basically stopped trying. This year, a month into the season, there's been:
1 pitcher HR
BB% has dropped to 2.2%, while it's been at 3-4% for the past 15 years
K% up to 39.2%, while it's been 31-37 recently
ISO of .019, half of what it was 4 years ago.
wRC+ of -31. wOBA of .115.

With a few bad games, pitchers' BA could fall below .100 (currently sitting at .105). Pitchers have always been bad hitters, true. But at this point, it appears as if they've stopped trying.

With the offense as it's been, even money says the NL adds the DH in the next 2-3 years. The purists and traditionalists may not like it, but people have gotten used to instant replay, they'll get used to pitchers never batting. When your best pitchers can barely keep up with even the worst batters, something has to change.

[ezpkns34]

In regards to the DH in OOTP, I always make sure it's enable for every league at every level

My theory is mostly that it will lead to the AI needing to make less managerial decisions, which seems like a good thing. The fact that it leads to me only having to fill out 2 lineups instead of 4 is just icing on the cake

[Amazin69]

This year, a month into the season, there's been:

Small. Sample. Size. I haven't looked at the data from last year, but I'm pretty sure I could find one month out of the six where pitchers were hitting better than the recent norm, and I wouldn't want to use that to indicate pitchers' skills were rising.

Let's remember that offense is dropping across ALL positions, which is the whole reason the DH advocates are crawling out from under their rock. Have all hitters "basically stopped trying", then?

The purists and traditionalists may not like it

Might we desist from hurling these derisive terms at anyone who opposes unnecessary change? I have perfectly good reasons for opposing the DH, as noted above. (It takes athleticism and versatility out of the game, it reduces strategic decision-making by the manager, it treats pitchers differently from any other player in the game [if you want a two-platoon system, as in football, then just go for it. Why half-ass it like the DH does?]) None of them involve my doing my Tevye impersonation and yelling "tradition!"

The tradition exists because it works, not vice-versa. You don't see us going around calling DH proponents "shallow and easily-panicked trendoids, prone to stampeding after silly fads", do you? (Well…except for how I just did that, of course. Ain't I a stinker? )

The fact that it leads to me only having to fill out 2 lineups instead of 4 is just icing on the cake

You could achieve that same simplicity by eliminating the DH in the AL. Or by eliminating interleague play. Or both. JMO.